Elevate Your Leadership Game with
Joe Davis, Managing Director and Senior Partner at the Boston Consulting Group
Willy Walker: Good afternoon, everyone. It is a real pleasure for me to have Joe Davis with me today. I had the former governor of Indiana and former president of Purdue University, Mitch Daniels, join me last week. And, as I read Joe's book, I couldn't help but think of Mitch Daniels as being an extremely generous leader. Joe and I'll jump into his book and talk a lot about his book on generous leadership. But having the former governor and President of Purdue, who has done such amazing things with Purdue University on last week, was a real treat, and it’s well worth a listen to anyone who missed last week’s episode. Let me do a quick intro, Joe, and then we’ll dive into our conversation.
Joe Davis is a Managing Director and Senior Partner at Boston Consulting Group (BCG). Joe has been with BCG for over 35 years, co-founded the Washington, DC office, led office systems, started BCG as a public sector business, led BCG North America, and is the current chair of BCG Center for Inclusion and Equity. For those people who don't know, BCG is one of the big three management consulting firms along with Bain and McKinsey. BCG has revenues of over $12 billion and 32,000 consultants around the globe, advising major corporations as well as non-profits and all sorts of other enterprises. Joe earned his BA from Whitman College, where he is the current board chair and an MBA from Harvard Business School. Joe has been married to his wife, Sarah, for over 40 years. They have four children and eight grandchildren. His recently published book, which I just mentioned, “The Generous Leader: Seven Ways to Give of Yourself for Everyone's Gain,” will be the focus of much of what we discuss today on the webcast. Joe, it's great to have you with me. BCG was the one management consulting firm that did not give me an offer.
Joe Davis: Oh, I knew you were going to say that.
Willy Walker: …out of HBS. And so, I feel a little bit intimidated having a senior BCG partner on the Walker Webcast. I hope you don't ask me to do a case interview while the two of us are having this discussion.
Joe Davis: I won't do that. I'm more afraid you're going to do that to me. I will say, following last week's guest, I'm quite honored and privileged to be here.
Willy Walker: It's great. So you talk a lot about authentic leadership and about showing your true self and about being curious and not knowing all the answers. But I want to jump back for a second to the fall of 1986. You've just arrived on the campus of Harvard Business School and you're taking your seat in section G.
Joe Davis: Listen to you. You did your homework.
Willy Walker: And you look around at all the Yale and Stanford grads, and you ask yourself, “Do I belong here having gone to Whitman College?” How authentic was Joe Davis in that sitting?
Joe Davis: That's a very interesting question, because not just having gone to Whitman College, but having started as a Procter and Gamble sales rep and all these other people were two years analysts at Goldman in these places. I'm not sure if I was authentic. Rather than just sit back and hope I can survive through the two years or at least the first year of the session. Although we'll see where we go this, Willy. But there were some very lessons early on in my life that probably taught me the value of authenticity and vulnerability sooner than I might have learned otherwise. Many are nervous about vulnerability even to this, no matter how long they've been in a career.
Willy Walker: You and I both are friends with John Rice. John Rice came out to our all-company meeting two weeks ago and ran our senior leadership team through an exercise. His question to everyone in the room was, “Who in the room likes to dance?” And a couple of hands went up, and then he said, “Who will dance if you're forced to at a wedding?” And a number of other hands went up. And then he said, “Who hates dancing?” And a ton of hands went up and he picked someone on my senior management team who happened to be a white male. And he said, “So, Jim, how do you feel when you walk out on that dance floor?” Said, “Oh, man, I feel like the eyes of the world are on me. I really feel like I have two left feet. I feel like I'm the most uncoordinated dancer in the world. And that I'm making a fool of myself? And that everyone's watching me and all that stuff.” John looked after Jim had given all these criteria and looked at him. He said, “That's how most minorities feel when they walk into any type of corporate environment where they are one of few or the only one.” And I want to stick there for a moment as it relates to how you felt in that classroom in 1986, I'm assuming the only Whitman graduate in the room with all these other people. Did you feel like you belonged?
Joe Davis: Probably not. And that as well as not just Whitman, but the two years Bain consultant, two year McKinsey consultant, two year Goldman Sachs. These people I thought were up on a pedestal, in my mind. At that time quite colorblind about it, but I didn't feel I belonged for many months. And so belong is a big word. I didn't feel like I should have deserved to be there. Belong is a big word. It was a bunch of people. I got that.
Willy Walker: But believe me, as the St. Lawrence University grad and the only one in my class and there was one person a year ahead of me who went to St. Lawrence. But as the only one in my class from St. Lawrence, I felt very much like you did. So my questions to you or because I felt the exact same way, I felt as if I didn't belong. And the reason I'm going to is that could you be your authentic self? Because your book talks a lot about leaders being their authentic selves, and it's pretty easy for you and me, given our successful careers to be authentic, to talk openly, show our vulnerabilities, whatever. But I can guarantee you the only thing that I wouldn't do in the fall of 1993 at Harvard Business School was fail, show that I was vulnerable, show that I didn't know the answer to something. And so I sit there and read your book that talks about showing that you learn from failures, show that you don't have all the answers, and that all sounds great and good, except when you are earlier in your career, you really don't have the ability to do that.
Joe Davis: No, and you're right, I think back. We had to raise our hands once a couple of times a semester. So I did raise my hand in class sometimes, but it was with huge fear that I wouldn't know what to say relative to all these other people. And it's so funny. You sit back, Willy, because this is so ridiculous, of course to think that way. Early on, I think this whole idea of vulnerability in particular but even authenticity. I believe most of you learn over time as you realize, “Wow if I show a little myself or show that I don't know the answer, someone else reveals they don't. And then we both release roadblocks.” But that takes time, experience, and testing yourself. If I may, I'll tell an interesting story.
There's a BCG partner, actually a black male, which is relevant story. He said, “I would never admit I didn't know something. So if the team was about to get stuck and we're going to turn to me and say, “What do you think we should do?” Before, I would get caught out having to say, “I don't know, I might leave the room, I might just disappear.” Now, that's pretty heavy. So one time, I thought this was just an utter waste of time. And he said, “Everybody, I don't know either.” And he said, “It was huge. Oh, you don't know? Oh, wow. None of us know.” And there's a breath of fresh air in the room. The energy heightens up. Let's just brainstorm. And he said, “Wow, that was quite a lesson for me.” A little bit of vulnerability. I don't know. That's not the biggest vulnerability in the world, of course. And it freed everybody else who was also stuck to start to brainstorm, to be creative, and not just remain stuck. But that takes all of us time and kind of stepping over a little line into that space and discovering the benefits that were there, or it teaches you, which of course, doesn't hurt that much depending on how far you step.
Willy Walker: So that story is an interesting one about your colleague at BCG. I'll tell one from our introductions at HBS. So we're sitting in our section room, and introductions start. And the first person up says, “Oh, I went to Yale undergrad and rowed on the US junior national rowing team, and I worked at Goldman Sachs, and I'm sitting here, thinking I went to Saint Lawrence University, worked in Latin America, and somehow or another found myself at Harvard Business School.” And so, as the intros are getting closer to me, my stress level is getting higher.
Joe Davis: Your heart's gone.
Willy Walker: And we could fortunately only do about ten introductions a day during lunch. So I had a couple of days to stew over when it was going to get to me in the classroom. About six people before it got to me, a gentleman in my section named Tim Huckaby stood up, and said, “My name is Tim Huckaby. I'm from Atlanta, Georgia. I went to Georgia Tech University and I applied to Harvard Business School three times and got turned down three times. And thank God I got in on my fourth try. And I'm thrilled to be here.” And all of a sudden, somebody in the room was human. Somebody in the room had shown that they actually had tried something and actually failed and hadn't walked on to the US junior national rowing team. It allowed everyone in the room to not just go to their bio and say, “I went to Yale. I was on the US junior national rowing team.” But to say, “I'm Lisa, and I like to cook. I'm Charlie, and I run in my free time.” And it was that vulnerability that Tim Huckaby showed that was such a leap at that moment when everyone was saying, “You got to be perfect. You got to show your resume.” That allowed everyone in the room to open up. And I've always admired Tim for taking that leap of faith. But I think about your colleague, about exiting out of the room and taking the leap of faith to say, “You know what? I don't know the answer.” And then work with the team to find it.
Joe Davis: I'm sure that when you were six persons later, it was much easier. Thank heavens for Tim for you, of course, It is powerful. I was thinking I had dinners with BCG senior alums once a month or so and been in one city twice and the same people came both times. And he was an alumnus of BCG many years ago. He had a substance abuse addiction, and he lived it. But he and I just think about the dinner we had the other day, we go around, introduce each other and he's maybe six out of 20, and people talk about how many kids they had, the job. They have nice stuff. He says, “Yeah.” He talks about that. Then he said, “Of course, some of you know, boom he goes right into this addiction” The rest of the conversations were much more interesting about people. They were richer, they were more real because he had broken the same thing as the fellow Tim Huckaby had broken the ice to share a bit of yourself while it hurts. Actually relieves everything that you know and frees everybody else to do the same. It's quite powerful.
Willy Walker: But as it relates to working with leaders, you've worked with business leaders at very challenging times. Post 9/11, the great financial crisis, the pandemic. And to some degree, in the challenging times we face today. When you think about that construct of genuine leadership, of empathetic leadership, when times are tough, there's a sense in all of us that when the times get tough, the tough get going. It's like, you've gotta fight hard with hard, you gotta push back. And that these times, because they're unusually challenging as it relates to the way that technology is changing everything, the dynamics that we all face in the office and in the corporate world, that you sort of need to pick and be a tough leader. From reading your book, you debunk that notion.
Joe Davis: I challenge it. Especially I think Willy a little bit interesting in that word, what does someone mean by tough. And let me make a few comments here. One thing, I was talking with Joaquin Duato, one of the people I interviewed for my book. He's the CEO of Johnson and Johnson. He said something to be very interesting which ties into the whole concept. He said, “Joe, of course, trying is great, giving your best shot, but that doesn't matter. As a leader, outcomes matter.” So you still have to drive results. But then he said, “The sooner you understand that and get past yourself and become mature enough to realize that the way you're going to drive those outcomes is by connecting with and listening to your people, the sooner you'll unleash.” He said, “The human traits that will get you to the most exceptional outcomes.” So it's very interesting to Joaquin, and it took a long life and many times to learn this. But he started with, “Yes you got to be tough enough to get results that were tough, but it's only coming through the people.” So I think on your point I was thinking about that. You're not the first person to ask me that. One thing is I just said, “You still have to drive results.” I think one change is enough to think about all the stakeholders. Of course, your investors and shareholders, but also the clients and customers, also your people, and the community at large. But if I think about it, you gotta start to make decisions. Nobody wants a wishy-washy, indecisive – but you have to be tough enough to say, “Hey, I may be wrong and change or change it.” Change the decision that takes some vulnerability and “toughness.” The other thing I think you have to think about is, this whole conversation, tough enough to be vulnerable and authentic. If you want to unleash your people, you have to actually get past your own fears that are maybe not so. And show that you actually can connect with and be human and enable them to be human. Fran Katsoudas head of people policy and purpose at Cisco, the tech company. She started a career as a leader on the polar side, “You don't have enough killer instinct. You don't care. You should put that care away. You don't want to have as much of that as you do.” She said I didn't follow that advice. It wasn't authentic for me, for her. And she didn't work out so well for that leader either, she pointed out. But she said she doesn't believe at all for today's leaders. And she said to me she'll make tough decisions. She'll engage in intense issues. She will push people to move fast, but she'll always strive to do it with respect and care for the team, which is not dissimilar to Joaquin’s point. Of course, we're going to get results. We're going to get it by teaming together and unleashing the potential of all of us. I don't know Jack Welch personally, or that Jack Welch's reputation is tough, I don't think works so much anymore. Satya Nadella is a great culture carrier, smart as heck, visionary, and still a tough guy, seems to manage results. That tough is the kind of tough I think people are looking for. And Satya brings a lot more humanity than maybe some of the other some of his other counterparts.
Willy Walker: When you ran BCG, North America, I think the number was 68% of the people that you managed inside of BCG North America were under 29 years old. Am I right?
Joe Davis: You're right. Yes. So 70% of the people are under 29. It was shocking.
Willy Walker: Yeah. Exactly. But so you're meeting with 68% of BCG North America consultants. And you're saying to them you're either going to be a senior leader at BCG if you stay as a consultant, or you're going to get into the industry and potentially work up through the executive ranks to be leaders of your enterprises. To that 29-year-old BCG consultant, what do you tell him and her as it relates to how to grow, how to learn, to get to such a Nadella? In other words, as you and I talked about, there's a big difference between Joe and Willy sitting in those seats at HBS. The two of us sit today. And it's easy for me to read your book and say, “I need to be more like that.” But to someone who is trying to work their way through the pecking order and show what makes him or her unique. How do you ingrain those skills in them as they're trying to make sure that no one thinks they're not the smartest person in the room? No one thinks that if they give them an assignment, they're not going to do it perfectly. There are a lot of things that you're saying leaders need to show and work with their team that, quite honestly, an individual trying to work up the ladder cannot show.
Joe Davis: That 29-year-old pretends you're him or her now. The first thing I would say is, “You really need to listen and engage and understand the lived experiences in the background of everybody and understand what they know that you don't know. So you get a richer answer.” If I watch BCG or those people I know, they've been clients I've seen over time who don't actually understand Willy's question. Why is he asking this? What's in his head that I don't know? That is so powerful. And too many, I don't think there's a single senior leader I talked to that doesn't say that over and over. Or I ask questions. And every single one of them. Now you have to learn to do that. And maybe asking questions shows a little bit of vulnerability. But I think that the first and most important thing is really if you're going to keep growing there, understand who you're working with, understand their people, understand they know things you don't know. They have experiences you haven't had. That when you put them together with you is going to be much more, much more powerful. I think that goes a little bit like Joaquin’s point. It takes some maturity to realize that. So maybe time is a little bit of an issue. But over time and if you get burned a few times, I'll tell you one time I watched a client presenting to a steering committee as a CEO. He was the head of the supply chain. He had a presentation going down this path. The CEO stopped him and asked a question that came from the outside zoom right in the middle. And he looked over, made a few statements, and then just went back to his presentation. And that CEO just glazed over. He stopped listening to the rest of the conversation. They thought you didn't spend even 30 seconds saying, “Well, Steve, why are you asking that question? What's in your head that I'm missing?” That's a little bit of vulnerability, probably a little bit of fear. I have my presentation. I can't vary from it. What if I get caught up right on the answers that I don't know? But I think this is powerful and most important capability or trait that as you're going to grow and really a listener, a leader who sees others as humans who have great potential to help you grow and build your business, that's probably, a pretty critical trait that I would tell any person to learn. Now especially in consulting, because I'm not in the head of the client, you're in trouble. The client doesn't benefit. We won't go to consulting.
Willy Walker: But I think it's all super interesting, because I do think that this broader topic of diversity and inclusion. Then, also rank and file, are somewhat interconnected in the sense that when you're trying to work your way up in a firm, you want to impress, you want to be smart, and you want to get everything done as well or better than anybody else because you want to impress. And yet the skills that you really need to be a breakthrough leader aren't those skills. Yet, you have to do that. You have to put in that time, and then also the sense that we were just talking about 68% of BCG North America was people who are under 29 years old. You worked with a lot of people who were just starting their careers who in a presentation to a client, aren't going to be given the opportunity to speak, aren't going to be given the opportunity to ask the question. Because they're the associate who put the presentation together, did a great job on the PowerPoint, and did a lot of great thinking behind the scenes. But when it's time to present to that client, Joe's the one who's going to do it, or somebody else who's the other lead on the engagement is going to do it. And so I find it to be interesting about people, to some degree, finding their voice, if you will. And how to instill in people the ability to develop a voice, particularly whether you're the junior person on the team, whether you're the only black person in the room, or whether you're the only woman in the room where you've got all that running through your head at the same time as the pecking order of who's there and actually supposed to contribute.
Joe Davis: Let me comment two ways. First off, to the junior person, but I'm going to get to a more important point. Second, there are plenty of opportunities for them to try to pivot. There must have been a team meeting before to prepare for that presentation. Maybe that's an opportunity to speak up. But I think the more important thing is that you mentioned the word inclusion, it's two points, DE&I and inclusion. I speak about inclusion, meaning includes many into your thinking, especially senior leaders who might be surrounded by their team. You're nodding, right they're senior. I've watched many good leaders bring in the person who did the spreadsheet to the prep meeting and talk and ask that person a question. I ask them now they're going to be nervous and scared, but it's pretty low risk. It's well. If they completely screwed up, that's one thing. But it's pretty low risk. They're inside, and they get a chance to engage. You learn something that you didn't know probably that's not filtered by all the levels. And they're beginning to learn those moves. But you, as a leader, are the one that has to make the first step to including them. By engaging them and letting them, give them a voice. I think I always start, not zoom as much anymore, but it's asking the least tenured person in the room a question on the screen. I always start with them, and you get to see everybody else. “Oh, wow. I thought they were just here to listen.” Joe’s actually talking to them. What's that all about? You and I both know what it's about.
Willy Walker: I think it's funny. I've got a quick anecdote for you that I think is something I hadn't thought about when I was doing my notes for this conversation. I think we're going to go to this, but it is a funny story because I think it's focused on specific knowledge. And what can you potentially know that no one else in the room knows as a trick for younger employees? How you find a voice. And so, this is way back in the day. I was working for Texas Pacific Group on the potential acquisition of Aerolinas Argentina, which is the state-owned airline in Argentina. At that time, TPG owned Continental Airlines. And we were competing against American Airlines. To try and buy, Aerolinas Argentina from the government. And so I was the lowest person on the totem pole, I was an associate at Newbridge Latin America, which was their Latin American funds. I have been able to arrange a meeting with President Carlos Menem through a friend who I called and said, “Can we get a meeting?” And they put me together. So everyone's like, “Wow, you got a meeting with Menem. That's great.” And so then what began was all the politics about who was going to come to the meeting with Menem. And so David Bonderman wanted to come down from the States to meet with him. And then David Grizzle, who ran business development for Continental Airlines, was going to come. And then the head of TPG Latin America and then the head of TPG Argentina. And then, there were a bunch of other people who all wanted to be in the room, and there were about 20 efforts to knock me off the invite list. But since I put the meeting together, I had a seat in the meeting because I got the meeting.
Joe Davis: You were the connection.
Willy Walker: And there's Menem at the end of the table, and he's got his translator. Then there's Bonderman, and there's Grizzle, and there's Rogelio Pagano, and there's all these people, and I'm at the very end of the table. And so we start going. And, of course, I'm not supposed to speak in this meeting. David Bonderman running one of the largest buyout firms in the world. And David Grizzle runs business development Continental. They're the ones who are going to speak at the meeting. And Menem is doing this simultaneous translation. And I hear and I spoke, and still do speak fluent Spanish. And so all of a sudden, President Menem is responding to a Bonderman question, and it's going to the translator. And I hear what he's saying, and I know the answer because I speak fluent Spanish. And other than Rogelio, I was the only person on our team who spoke Spanish. And so, with a little bit of gumption, I jump in and say, “Señor Presidente,” and I start to respond to Menem's question and cut through the translator. And I guarantee you Joe, every single person in that room other than Bonderman sat there and went, “What is he doing? Jumping in on this conversation.” Bonderman had this huge smile on his face and said, “We got this gringo down at the end of the table who actually speaks fluent Spanish. And that might actually help our chances here.” And then Menem and I started having this conversation back and forth without the translator. And I guess as I think back on that, it is all the dynamics of being the junior person in the room, not really having a voice, but then also having specific knowledge or a specific skill that actually allows you to engage and provide something to the conversation that maybe others in the room don't have.
Joe Davis: It's also powerful that Bonderman didn't shut you down. This is a person who has grown and matured and been around a lot of moves. “Hey, wait a minute. I got a young guy that knows what he's talking about. Knows him, let him go, guy.” If he has to bail you out. He'll figure out how to bail you out. But that was two things. You had gumption. Which is not always easy, I do admit. But him actually allowing you to engage like that shows real leadership. And those other guys probably next time, too. “Oh, wait. The young guy knows something. Let's let him talk.” I'm sure they all learned a little bit about leadership. That's a great story. I thought you were gonna say the president spoke to you first as the guy who organized the meeting. That would also be a very powerful story.
Willy Walker: Actually, just going back on it, when we walked in, he knew. Because it was the minister of economy who used to be the Argentine ambassador to the U.S., who I got to know in D.C., who put the meeting together. And so when I walked in, Menem, was extremely nice to me and knew that I knew the Minister of Economy. But once the meeting started, it was all business. I don't think he had any sense that he was going to talk to me until I jumped in.
But anyway, let's talk for a moment about “Head, hand, and heart,” because I think you pulled together a number of the themes as it relates to the type of leadership that you see as being appropriate for today's world.
Joe Davis: It also goes back to the Joaquin statement. Nobody and some people have said to me, “Joe, it's all about being generous.” What about getting results and all that? This is arguing the head. You've got vision, strategy, thinking through how to engage. Of course, that's critical. The hands-driving metrics, getting it done whether you're doing it or setting it up. But the more you bring the human out, especially when I don't like to say the young people. But there's so much data about the next generations looking for an organization with purpose. They're leaders with values. They want it because in work life, we can talk about a world, it's just blurred so much. Now you're on holiday. If you weren't, you might be in your home. It's just blurred so much that the people do need to bring their full self or have no choice but to bring their full self to work and want to be seen as humans and as a person, not just cogs in an organization. The day of the white shirt, blue suit, IBM thing. Remember those days? I just think, of course, or look how we're both dressed too. Those days are just gone. And so I think that a heart in every leader is always there. But the hearts got to get equal, either more or equal. I don't care about equal play in how you're going to really motivate and inspire people. And when you're motivated by people, kind of a trite statement. That is, of course, when the best outcomes come for any of your companies, it's not, I don't think, any, maybe some geniuses, but I don't think many leaders can do it all by themselves. They can get it so far. And then the team's not picking it up. Good luck to you.
Willy Walker: When did you, as a leader, start talking about your own personal journey as it relates to your parents getting divorced and your mom dying at a young age? But your mom died when I think you were 30. And then your father and your relationship with your dad and your dad's life after getting divorced from your mom. That's all very personal. When did you find the voice to be able to talk about all that openly to the point where someone like me knows about it?
Joe Davis: It took a lot. Probably the divorce that one's easy. And the death was sad. But it was really my dad who was gay, which is quite fascinating as a young boy, in the ‘70s and ‘80s or ‘60s and ‘70s. I figured out a lot by the 80s, like, “How am I here? Why am I here?” Questions. Today is different. This is the 1960s and 1970s. And we did live in the Bay area. It took me a long time. I could go too long, but it took me a long time to even recognize myself that he was gay. And finally he had AIDs pills on the shelf. It was undeniable. I think I had to acknowledge this. Then talking to it took me, let's see, like ten years ago. So 25 years as a BCGer. And so maybe at seven, you start to lean more and more. So 7 to 15 years, before I finally would be open about that. And along the way, to be honest with you I felt the value of being vulnerable. I cried quickly, one colleague, my chief of staff, who said, “Joe, actually, when you cry, you just free all of us to actually show more of ourselves.” So it's actually a good thing that is not a good thing to cry all the time. But when things are emotionally powerful, I'm not afraid to show it. So I thought this, “Okay, I'm going to just go out there and talk about this in front of a couple hundred people at our Pride Network meeting.” And that was interesting itself because I don't want them to think, “Oh, I understand your life because I don't really.” It was my dad, but I wasn't completely lost on their life. So it took me 20 years to get comfort with myself. And then, even when I talked about a lot of thinking about what I would say to this group too. And it was my own reveal. It sounds silly, but me stepping up was the most vulnerable line for me at that stage. And I know young people today with “What are you talking about?” This is not so unusual today. But this was a long time ago.
Willy Walker: That's interesting because in the book you talk Joe about, if you will, not assuming anyone else's life experience. In other words, good leaders listen and understand that no one's life, no one's perception, anything is identical. You and I both went to Harvard Business School, but that doesn't mean that you and I perceive Harvard Business School or have the exact same Harvard Business School experience. So I can't sit there and say, “Oh, Joe had exactly the same experience at HBS that I could, therefore, I can know what his experience was like.” And I think a lot of people do make assumptions about one's life experience, about one's perceptions of various things, and then think that they know. And oftentimes, as you write, that's a big no no. Just constantly remind yourself that everyone's life experience is distinct, and make sure that you're learning from them and asking the right questions so that you do understand their view on it. Just as you said, “You can't” when you talk to the pride group at BCG. You have your own issue on that, but you don't know what it's like to actually be gay and come out. It may have been your own issue to deal with, which you understand. If I revealed something that previously I didn't want to reveal, but that's obviously very different from what they've all had to deal with on their own.
Joe Davis: Oh, absolutely. No, it's interesting because you're right. Even when you mentioned DE&I earlier and people of color, all the white people could assume. “Oh yeah, we all have the same background. We all have the same lived experiences.” Now, I'm not going to pretend that we are even close to understanding a black person's lived experience, someone who's an immigrant, or someone's first-generation college. But there's all kinds of back. But even that's to your point, that's a big mistake as you said, “You and I have the exact same way of thinking. And the mistake is you don't get the richest set of insights out of your people.” And if you just assume something about you start to stifle them. Obviously, it was one thing that when I did finally talk about that with this group. I was also worried that there would be backlash about, who do you think you are? But of course not. It was thankfully, the opposite. “Oh well, thank you for sharing a little bit about you. And let me now, let me tell you a little bit more about me. It just opened up this whole human connection that you never know when it's going to be valuable.” That sounds to trite. You never know. We're a team together. And the fact you've got a connection like that makes for much more powerful working together, etc.
When you're stuck the last thing you want is to stay stuck and go sit in your office. It's just that business. There's not enough time. And I think I'm hearing this story on this vulnerability. Just a simple little story. As a young consultant, I was in my second or third year in couldn't do certain things, some math things, I did not do our analysis, so I walked down to the senior partner on my team and said, “I know how to do this.” And obviously, I was brave enough to do that, to ask him. It's very interesting. He could have said, “I don't know either. Let's walk down and ask this other person.” A very tiny thing said to me, signaled to me, “A little vulnerability, I don't know, isn't the end of the world. We'll go find the next, the power of teamwork, the power of asking questions.” And you think he could have said, “Hey, John, busy, go away.” And I got to get the answer and then tell me later, he could have said, “What's wrong with you? Go figure it out.” But instead, right inside a very powerful signal on the power of revealing, revealing where you don't know and going and asking for help. You just see it is so much faster.
Willy Walker: I hate to go back to another HBS experience, but I've just got one that's just a little bit too much on that in the most dramatic form. My finance professor was a gentleman. It was in finance when it was called, like, fin I can't remember what it was. One of those acronyms that you and I both remember from where we. Big E and all that other stuff.
Joe Davis: Yeah.
Willy Walker: And so Bill Bruns was my financial reporting and accounting prof. And we were going through discounted cash flows, and he's going through this case and we're going over it. And he was all right, great, we're done. And I just didn't have it. And I raised my hand, and I said, “Could you go back and go through that again? Because I'm not getting what you're saying there.” And I could tell that there was like this gasp in the room of someone being like, he just raised his hand and said he didn't understand something. And you don't ever. Like, once the teachers tell you what you're supposed to do, you're smart enough to learn it.
Joe Davis: Let's go figure it out.
Willy Walker: Bruns went back, and he retaught it. In the restroom after that class, one of my section mates made a really snarky comment to me like, “Ha, dumb guy. You should have gotten it on the first one.” And I sat there and felt pretty damn insecure about it. And then, at the end of the semester, Joe, I got a one in that class. And I guarantee you, to this day, the only reason I got a one in that class of people listening at HBS, it's a forced curve. You've got 10% of the class gets one which is an A, 80% of the class gets a two which is a C, and 10% of the class gets three, which is an F. And so the forced curve makes it. And so the only reason Bruns gave me that was because I raised my hand that day, showed vulnerability, and asked him to reteach something, which I'm pretty sure he probably thought whatever 10 or 20% of the class probably was exactly where I was. But nobody else is going to raise their hand and say, “Would you reteach that?” And I still have the name of the guy who made that snarky comment in the men's room after the class. I got to tell you, he got blacklisted in my head pretty hard for the rest of my life to say, “Yeah, you know what? You're preying on me right now, and that's not a lot of fun and not making me feel all that good.” But it is interesting how leaders and Bruns was clearly the leader there who can reward people who take those steps and show that vulnerability. Because they know everyone in the room is learning from that experience.
Joe Davis: I bet you said 10 to 20%. You and I will never know the facts. I'll bet you 30 to 50% didn't know what happened either. The problem was back then no one would come up to you and thank you. Today, probably people will come and thank you. “Hey, thanks for that question. I was stuck too. I didn't have the guts also.” But I still think your one is for that reason. I think that's insightful.
Willy Walker: No, but that's a really interesting point. So how do leaders capitalize on that? So we just talked about where you and I were in that room. Put on the ties. You go to the GE management meeting and you don't want to tell Jack Welch that anything's wrong. You've been working it wherever. But in today's world, it's very different that people might come up to you and say, “Thanks for sharing. Thanks for showing that vulnerability.” How do you counsel leaders to capitalize on that and create that environment?
Joe Davis: I will just use your example. Just think, what was his name? What was the professor's name?
Willy Walker: Bill Bruns.
Joe Davis: Bruns, I got Bonderman in my head. Bill Bruns had said at the moment, “Wow, Willy, that's a good question. First off, does anybody else not get it?” That would have said even a ten. He could have behaved a whole different way now. HBS professors back then didn't show any vulnerability that I ever noticed. But that would have been very powerful. In other words, engaging with you in a positive conversation which enables everybody else to say, “Oh, okay, it's okay to be a little bit off here.” But I bet you $1 million if you'd said, “Well, that's a great question. I'm sure not everybody.” You could even stop I'm sure not everybody gets it. Let's just go back through that. Or you could better anyone else not get that too. What part didn't you get? So I can make sure I answer that really well. There are a lot of ways to acknowledge your I'll call it honesty instead of vulnerability, by acknowledging your honesty and your guts or nerve to actually put it out there. You're helping a lot of people. And that's one that I think that's the thing that leaders can do is acknowledge those moments. Not just like my friend Steve. He didn't trash me for not having the answer. He actually said, “Oh, I don't know either. Let's ask another person.” What a powerful message. That's how I think a leader should behave in those moments and acknowledge that vulnerability. Know damn well that more than one person's feeling that way, there's no way you're the only person feeling that way in anything. You know what I mean?
Willy Walker: Yeah. It's interesting. Talk about engaging the skeptics. So we could sit there and say that the guy who gave me a hard time in the men's room after the class was a skeptic. How do you engage this guy?
Joe Davis: I think he was worse than that, but I won't use the word until a live podcast. What I would like to know, don't answer this, about what his career was like and how it would go along the way and all this stuff.
Willy Walker: People who know me, Joe, will not be surprised that I followed his career and feel very good about where I am today vs. where he is.
Joe Davis: Good. You've only proven the point.
Willy Walker: That's not in any way to ...
Joe Davis: I had a buddy in the early days of Procter and Gamble who was a sales guy. He was a real slap on the back and he moved boom boom real fast. Now it's like, “Gosh, I thought he wasn't that good.” So I thought P&G was a good place. What the hell? After three fast moves, he was gone because of just slapping it on the back of being an awe shucks guy.
So to your point on this, engage in the skeptics. That's why I'm a big believer in that. It's all part of this whole listening and really understanding what you know that I don't know. And that actually be another bit of advice to young people. I'll often tell people, go engage the skeptics, and uncover the nose and that doesn't work in that case where that guy was picking on you. Because usually, a knowologist isn’t a blocker. Often, they're just trying to block it. They don't want change. That's not true. I don't know, it might be one in 100 times 150 times. What it is they know something you don't know about whatever idea it is won't work. And you need to know that, if you don't know that, you’re just going to get bit.
Another story, someone told me this story. I wasn't part of this project, but we're doing some work for the client to talk about moving some of their operations from one place to another place. We've done a great analysis of all the numbers and showed you should move here. The team presented the work and at the end, the CEO said, “Well, this is great.” But that's a good site, that’s saving money. But I have the most diverse workforce in the existing place. How are you going to replicate that workforce down there? Are you telling me I have to lose all this diversity? The BCG room, shame on them. Just kind of silent because they hadn’t thought through that. And afterward, the partner of the team said to the guy that’s running the project, “Well, what the hell?” He said, “Well, do you expect me to be an EEOC expert? No, but I expect you to engage with those people who are experts and understand. They may not have been skeptics but understand why something won't work. So I'm always into who doesn't think this is a good idea and why? And now, let's try to solve the why together. And that's what I mean by gauge the skeptics if you're trying to get anything done.
Willy Walker: So a lot of what you write about in the book Joe in my mind, is, if you will, tips to leadership in a relatively traditional Corporate context in the way of being generous as a communicator, be generous as a listener, be inclusive, find allies, generous in development, generous about making moments and moments count. Giving up the mask? How as you wrote this, when I think about Satya Nadella at Microsoft and how incredible a leader he is, but also how big an organization Microsoft is. So if I can, as you think about people like Christoph Schweizer, who's a generous leader who runs BCG when you've got 32,000 employees? I've got 1400. I can't meet with all of them. I have my own way of communicating with our team. But when I think about a global organization of 32,000, or what Satya has at Microsoft, which is hundreds of thousands, the ability to be the generous leader that you talk about only allows you to engage with people so much, only allows you to do so much. How have you seen leaders if you will leverage off of modern communication skills, modern meeting skills, zoom, whatever else that says that person not only has the ability to be their true selves as the leader, they've been identified by the board of directors or their managers to become the leader of this organization? But then have been able to take all these things in your book and then blow them out on a very wide scale.
Joe Davis: Yeah, a couple of things. In those roles, you need to be role-modeling all the time. Somewhat, I think of Arne Sorensen, if you saw that video, remember the video. So here he is. And, of course, he was sad. He's had cancer, but he told us, and he was bald from the chemo, and his tie was askew. And he said he was very vulnerable. This is during Covid when Marriott furloughed tens of thousands of people, they didn't fire anybody, and he was very honest with the group in that video. It went to 880,000 employees about how we're going to go through this together. I don't know what's going to come. Instead of pretending I got all the answers. He role model very clearly. But this is what we're going to do together. Here's how we're going to make this work. That was a great example. That's a unique circumstance for him to be able to role model that. But I do think first and foremost is to role model these things. It's easy to role model vulnerability. You do whatever one is comfortable with. But I'll tell you no story about Joaquin when he's trying to connect with you. Do a video that goes across town hall or whatever. He calls these things friend testing or group testing. Like he'll get a group together and practice his speech. People that obviously work for him, and he'll say, “Okay, well, what did I say?” And they'll say the word and then he'll get a pen out, write down the words they use, not the words he said, because those are the words they heard. And then you'll say, now tell me if you had to go home tonight and tell this to your family at the dinner table, your family. What was my whole speech about? And he'll say, “Oh, well, they heard this. I said that either I have to incorporate their words or I'm just not making any sense.” And I got a check because I didn't even get my point. That's an example of what someone could do to make sure you're really connecting with where they're listening and what they're hearing. And then, of course, when you're providing the messages. I really just think this is all about role modeling. Just even, for example, when you're well, I'll go to corporate culture in a minute, but who do you address first when you're in a meeting? Who do you ask more questions about? Or do you only talk to your chief of staff, or do you talk to the finance person who's in the room or the HR person? The other thing I think is you also, of course, every company is different, but there are different metrics you can put in to encourage different types of behaviors. It's very interesting. When I moved to the West Coast, the West Coast was wobbly, and ended up doing pretty well while I was there for a lot of reasons. But one thing that the BCG review team at the time of which I was part of was my turn to step out of the room. But it came back growth shows great. Not just in the whole West Coast. Not only are you doing well, but every one of the officers, the partners, all of their performance is up. So somehow, you've lifted all of them. It's a very powerful message to me. So it wasn't about me doing well and helping the West Coast do well. It's actually everybody's now doing well. So you must be doing something right. And so I think that you could put metrics in -- retention in an area, people surveys. How is each leader doing, and how are people feeling in those groups? I think that metrics you can also put in place to send the right signals. And then as somebody says, “Who you reward and who you promote.” And if you promote one set of persons but send one build signal, you promote someone who's more of a generous servant or holistic leader that sends another set of signals. With that PNG person which I told you about. Pretty powerful to me that he lost his job after three quick promotions. That sent a big signal. And actually, “I thought P&G was one of the best companies in the world. This is 40 years ago, why the heck would that person survive?” But he didn't. He wasn't a bad person. He just wasn't as good as he talked.
Willy Walker: So there are a couple of suggestions/best practices that you talk about. One of them is about small acts as a leader. Having a big impact. I still write birthday cards for every employee at Walker & Dunlop. Takes a heck of a lot of time for me to do it.
Joe Davis: Good for you.
Willy Walker: I get lots of comments as it relates to. And it was one thing when we were a company of 40 people. It's another thing when you're a company of 1400. And my wrist literally does get tired on flights as I'm flying across the country doing birthday cards. And not just signing them but writing notes to most people. But you talk about those what I would call random acts of kindness. How do you do it on a scale basis? I do with 1400, but you work with much larger companies than Walker & Dunlop, where you see these incredible leaders do those small acts that make such a big difference for their teams and for their own. I guess the efficacy of their leadership would be a way I'd put it. What have you seen people do?
Joe Davis: Yeah. It's interesting because it's funny, Hans Paul, two previous CEOs ago, would call every partner, and he still does to this day. There are like 2000 of us. Your letters are harder. I actually write thousands of Christmas cards, and I won't write them if I can't write a note, but that's a big, small act. Both of those are pretty big. A couple of things I do think. Let me just start with the story of Scott Kirby, the CEO of United. His life was on a plane. He was telling me, and the captain came out, “Hello Mr. Kirby. Great to see you on my flight. So, please, you’re here.” “I love United, and I really love and respect your husband. And she goes, “Oh, why? What's going on?” She was a black woman. I said, “When George Floyd was killed in his murder, he called every captain who was a person of color and just checked in. He didn't have the answer for us. He didn't have will to do this and that. He just said, how are you doing? I'm here for you. We're here for you, a short call.” Your cards is not a small, but maybe a little bit of a big act, but not that big, by 20, 32 second phone calls, a minute or two and not sure how many, unfortunately. Very powerful. And you bet a million bucks that got around right for sure. To all the people of color or any sort of diverse network that got around and look at the loyalty of that person. So, obviously, any leader can do simple things like congratulate whomever for a job well done, send an email, and copy everybody else. Those are good things. Role models and remembering something about a person. Scott also said I remember when I walk into a meeting, and there are people I don't like to shake my hand. They say something to me as I'm leaving. If they're there, I try to comment on what they said. I think he has one of his good memories of remembering their name, which most of us get to do, but he also leaves members what they told him in comments back on that. These are small acts. I think the thing at scale is you just have to start leveraging. I'm sure you have somewhere either on your calendar, or somewhere you've got the birthdays coming up. Someone's getting you the cards you buy in advance, they're addressed. You team with people to do some of these things at scale. You've got support teams that can help you do that. But I think it's. You are gonna say something?
Willy Walker: No, I was just going to say it is exactly your point to create the systems that exist to allow for that to happen. And a lot of people sit there and say, my system for birthday cards is that there is a stack that I get, and it's got the person's name on the outside. It's got the actual sticky note that says when their birthday is. And then that allows me to say, “I hope the 15th of May was a great day, and thanks for all you do at Walker & Dunlop.” And then I take it, and it's already addressed, and it's already got postage on it, and off it goes. So the system allows it to happen in a much more efficient way. But at the same time, obviously, if I had to go out and buy the cards, put the postage on, and look up everyone's address, I just don't have time to do it. And I do think that a lot of leaders who have big companies and big jobs. My board asked me, Joe when we got to 500 employees at Walker & Dunlop, they literally asked me at a board meeting, do you think we're big enough, where you don't have time to do birthday cards anymore?" And I looked right at them, and I said, “The day I don't have time to write a birthday card to every Walker & Dunlop employee on the one day of the year that is their individual day. I shouldn't be CEO of Walker & Dunlop anymore.” And you know what? I'm probably going to eat those words if we do some big acquisition and go from a firm of 1400 people to a firm of 5000 people or whatever else, and I get to the point where it's just too much.
My friend Mary Erdoes, who runs asset management at JPMorgan. She runs an enormously large organization, and they have tons of research and reports that Michael Cembalest was one of the best analysts out there, writes. And Mary always writes a personal note when I get Cembalest research, and it's so easy for somebody in her group to say, J.P. Morgan Private Bank, here's your research from Michael Cembalest, or even to have it all just written by some stenographer that says, “Hey, take a look at this Mary.” But it's always got something that's unique to say, “Great seeing you at the asset managers meeting, or great seeing you there. Hope you and the boys are great, etc.,” and that personal touch for somebody who is in that big a position makes such a massive difference.
Joe Davis: I was thinking as you're talking and especially your board story. So first off, you actually care. They probably care, but they don't know what the word is. And then you understand the people you are working with are humans. They are real people. And they want to. You understand small acts for what you just said have a huge impact because they say, “You, Willy, recognize me in this moment, and that's a big deal. You see me as a person because you're talking about my birthday. You see, as a human, I'm going to get the best results for business, I'm going to pay that back to you in whatever I can, in the way I contribute.” And then, of course, you have to build systems as you get bigger. I bet you when it's a thousand, you'll figure out a system for those cards. I believe that deeply. If you put all these things together, you care about humans. Then you find the time sometimes, you sit in a plane lobby to watch movies. So you write birthday cards. Time is there for what you want to prioritize and prioritize humanity.
Willy Walker: I also think, Joe, your comment about the CEO of United. We just had our all company meeting two weeks ago, and I probably talked to 20 or 30 of my Jewish colleagues about the tragic conflict that's going on in Israel and Gaza right now. I don't have the answer for it. It's a topic that lots of people don't want to focus on. There is no easy this side, that side, everything else. But just by engaging with them and saying, “How's the family? Do you have family members who are in Israel?” You could just tell that asking the question meant the world to them and that, first of all, identifying them as Jewish, and knowing that they are Jewish and then asking if you have family in Israel and how are they? One of my colleagues has a number of family members in Israel and has a number of family members who have served and are just engaging with him in the tragedy of the conflict, in the fear and the warfare that's going on. You could just tell that he was very appreciative of the question. And to your point, as it relates to the CEO of United Airlines, it's not as if you have the answer. It's just connecting on a 1-to-1 human basis and then also caring to just say, “I'm sorry you and your family have to deal with this conflict and deal with the sadness and the loss and everything that is happening in the Middle East today.”
Joe Davis: I can't add much of that. I agree that it's interesting because it's not... But when George Floyd was killed, in our firm, what did you hear? Always hear this story. Something happened yesterday to my group of people, and it was silent the next day. Why were you all silent? And, you know, because I think too often any of us said, “Well, I don't know what to say. I don't have the answer.” But what you're just indicates you don't have an answer. Just say, “Hey, are you doing, okay? I saw what happened.” Whatever it might be. It's very powerful because it recognizes people where they are. You're sort of recognizing their lived experience, which is true. Of course, that conflict, as you mentioned on the board chair Whitman. And we have the Jewish people feeling it. We have the people, Muslims/Palestine at school. And it's so painful for both, for anyone was watching so much death.
Can we end on a more positive thing?
Willy Walker: We can very much so. So, as you think about people who want to lead with heart and compassion, what have we talked a lot about with you and what you got in your book? It is chock full of all sorts of working with leaders for as long as you have and also being a leader yourself who has a tremendous amount of compassion. You put those if you will, tips inside the book and say, “This is what best in class does. And we've talked about a bunch of them.” But as you sit there and say, “Let's go back to that 29-year-old BCG consultant who was aspiring to either be the leader of BCG someday or, heaven forbid, leave BCG and to be the leader of some other enterprise or corporation.”
Joe Davis: That's not bad. That's okay.
Willy Walker: It's okay, it's exactly right. You have a great alumni network of people who are running major corporations. But what's that advice people want to lead with heart and compassion?
Joe Davis: I guess my main advice is to read my book. That'd be nice. But putting that aside, go see those 7 Acts and their traits, and just pick one. Say, “Okay, I'm going to work on that more. I'm going to work on small acts.” Because you may or may not turn your whole personality around instantly. And I get questions a lot. Will people that are really tough-nosed, hard-asses, can they ever change? I don't know the psych books on that, but you can still practice any of these traits. You can say, “Okay, I'm really going to try to understand where you're coming from, Willy, and try to listen to you and learn from you, or I'm going to congratulate people and comment on their birthday.” At least traits will go a long way of showing you care, but actually putting that back to show that you recognize those with whom you're working as people, as humans. And that's very powerful. They will reward you in spades as well as them.
Willy Walker: Joe, it's been a pleasure. Your book is a fantastic read.
Joe Davis: Thank you.
Willy Walker: And congratulations on all that you have achieved. Since you were sitting in section G, and I was sitting in section E, I actually counted them up there, 26 Whitman graduates who've gone to Harvard Business School. And 36 Saint Lawrence graduates have gone to Harvard Business School.
Joe Davis: Oh, my. I didn’t know we had that many.
Willy Walker: Got a little edge on you. I'm not quite as much in the minority as you were, but it's fantastic. Thank you so much for spending the time. And I look forward to seeing you when I'm back in D.C. sometime. It'd be great to get together.
Joe Davis: Likewise. I think your offices are right by my condo there. So it's.
Willy Walker: All right.
Joe Davis: Thank you.
Willy Walker: Thanks, everyone, for joining us today. Have a great evening.
