Walker Webcast Celebrates a Legacy of Conversations
Willy Walker: Welcome to an unusual Walker Webcast, where we are going to go back and look at the highlights of the first five years of the Walker Webcast. Clearly, on a highlight reel, we aren't going to be able to take snippets from every conversation I've had with my over 200 guests over the past five years. I'm deeply thankful to every guest who has joined me on the webcast. It has been an amazing group of people who have shared their thoughts and insights into the world we live in. I'm deeply thankful for their time and all of their contributions to the Walker Webcast. I'm also deeply thankful to all of you, our faithful listeners, for listening to the webcast on a consistent basis. I get feedback on the webcast in elevators, in the back of Ubers, walking down the street, and meeting with investors around the globe. It is a real joy that so many people provide you with face-to-face feedback on the Walker Webcast. I've actually had someone standing in line at Starbucks who heard my voice and turned around and said, “Hey, are you Willy Walker?” It’s really fun stuff and a real honor for me to have been able to have the discussions that I've been able to have. Enjoy the highlight reel and thank you for listening in. I hope you enjoy what our team has pulled together as some of the highlights of the first five years of the Walker Webcast.
Kate Moore: Pre-pandemic normalized activity, but we haven't really had widespread reopening. We know this is coming and we're hopeful it's coming in 2021. But you know, I want to point out something: that everyone wants to go back to where we were in January or February of this year. It's a convenient framework for a lot of people to use. But I would suggest we need to think about what parts of the economy have increased in size, which behaviors have changed on the part of the corporations and the consumers, and what actually a go-forward economic activity might look like. The shape of the economy might be different, even if the size returns to pre-pandemic levels.
Dr. Peter Linneman: I'd say by the end of the year, the Dow will be down 10 percent or so from where it was when it started. Some numbers are like 10 percent down from where it started.
Barry Sternlicht: In his home somewhere in California in a modest house, like Warren Buffett's, I'm told he has. You don't get a chance to talk to somebody who lived through the Great Depression. He was supposed to be asking me questions. I was asking him all these questions. Charlie said, “Look, this isn't the Great Depression.” It's not going to be like that because the government is here, you know, putting money into people's pockets. The government didn't do that back then. It didn't ease and not like this. Though unemployment reached 30 percent, he said, “There were no prospects of finding jobs.” We actually know where all these jobs came from in the last six weeks. They came from retail. They came from hospitality. They came from tourism and leisure. They came from the airlines. They didn't come from Netflix, Apple, and Google. They didn't come from Starwood Capital Group. We haven't laid off a person, the parent. We know how to put them back to work. We know what industries have to be revived to get these people jobs again. There are no industries that are going the way of the dodo bird. People will travel, and they will go to hotels again, and they will visit their families and go to graduations, concerts, and parties.
Governor Glenn Youngkin: Let me just do a quick table setting on where we see the economy right now, and I think that will lead to, I think, a good backdrop on each one of the segments. It's where we are in the cycle. Boy, that's a tough one. I think we're at the bottom of the cycle today, and that has, I think, been something we've been preparing for. I don't think anybody expected to be in a global pandemic with, at one point or another, the entire world shutting down. I had a friend who runs a very large bank tell me that their disaster recovery plan was targeted toward the idea that one of their big buildings went out. The idea that all of them would go out at the same time was beyond their belief. I do think where we find ourselves today is so far beyond what anybody would have anticipated. But we were expecting that we were in a late cycle. We had felt it in pricing and opportunity and the risk-reward trade-off.
Willy Walker: Let’s start here. You went to Tufts, where you studied English. Your father was a lawyer as was your future father-in-law. Any pressure to go into the law world and go to Harvard Law School like your partner, Jim Cramer?
David Faber: An interesting question, Willy. It's funny. I haven't even thought about it. But yeah, I was an English major, as you say. I didn't necessarily have an idea of what I wanted to do. I think law school and the law were always something I thought might be what I defaulted to. But what I found is that I didn't want to be a lawyer. I was lucky in at least having enough belief that it wasn't worth going to law school if I didn't want to be a lawyer, even if I didn't necessarily know what I wanted.
Dr. Peter Linneman: Going back six months or eight months ago, I kept getting asked, “What would you invest in today if you could?” I really started thinking about it. I started going. “I'm not going to invest in zero yield.” I looked at multifamily, and multifamily, you could buy at a four-and-a-half cap. I know some markets are less than some, but it's not a crazy number to say four-and-a-half cap. It's not a nutso number. You could go get me a 10-year, 30-year am at two-eight?
Willy Walker: Two and a half, two-eight. I think your model is two-eight, which is great.
Dr. Peter Linneman: Two-eight, and then I started doing the math and going, “Gee, if income rises, NOI rises by 2 percent a year for 10 years, I can't lose.” I looked at the cash on cash and coverage and so forth. Then I started to say, “Well, that's all great, but what if it falls? What if NOI falls 10 percent and then another 8 percent over the next couple of years?” As I show you, you still do great. You still do. I know it's all just math, but it's straightforward math. You would agree, even if you buy and the day after you buy, NOI goes down 10 percent, and goes down another 8 percent the next year. Then it takes four years to get back to where it was. That's not a crazy recovery. Then it goes 2.5 percent a year after that for another four years. You do what, is it a 9 percent, 9.5 percent IRR? In what world can I always have interest coverage, always have debt coverage, and get a 9 to 9.5 percent IRR when incomes fall to 18 percent? By the way, 10 years later, income is only up by 10 percent total at the end of 10 years, and I get 9.5 percent, sign me up.
Will Ahmed: This is a market that I'm personally very excited about and I know we as a company are making big investments toward. I think if you zoom out for a second, you've got three million armed service people in this country trying to protect this country every day, dedicating their lives to that. From a health standpoint, there are a few groups that are more important to help understand, “Okay, is this person doing right from a health standpoint and from a performance standpoint?” There are a few different chapters in terms of how to think about that. One chapter is, “Okay, let's say you're a member of the army and you're onsite for training. How is that training affecting your body? Are you in a period of overtraining? Do you need more time to recover? How can we think more optimally about a training plan knowing that you may end up going to combat?” Now, let's say you go to combat, are there certain individuals who are redlining? Are there certain individuals that may need more attention, whether that be healthcare, medical care, or just general self-awareness? One thing that was fascinating is we did a study on Navy SEALs. Obviously, Navy SEALs are some of the mentally toughest people in the world. Turns out, though, some of that mental toughness can be a setback. Because if your mind's able to push your body way past your body as comfortable, you're going to likely push your body to a place that's not necessarily good. We did a study where we had 40 members, and this is public. I can talk about it. We have 40 members of the Navy SEALs who have access to their data. They got Whooped, and they had access to their data. Then we had 40 members who did not have access to their data. But they wore a Whoop. The interesting thing is if you looked at the group that had access to their data versus the group that didn't, they dramatically improved their physiology relative to the group that didn't. Again, this idea of self-awareness or managing what you measure leads to positive behavior change. A lot of that's a theme for Whoop. They were able to see, “Wow, if I get a little more sleep, I have a higher recovery.” When you start getting competitive people think about competing around sleep versus competing around strain, really positive things can start to happen quickly.
Willy Walker: When you hear REM was an American rock band, do you wish you guys were still together?
Mike Mills: I know I don't wish we were still together. It is jarring to hear the word was applied. I don't know, I still think of it as ongoing even though we're not actually making any new music because it feels like it never really goes away. We exist still in vinyl, on the radio, and all these ephemeral places, but no, I don't wish we were still doing it. I went to a U2 concert a few years ago. For the first two or three songs, I was sitting there thinking, “Man, they're having so much fun; this is so great. I could be doing this.” Then I said, “Then they'll be doing it tomorrow night and the night after that, and for the next six months.” I said, “Ah, that's okay. I'm good.”
Willy Walker: I guess the core question is why should we care about when we eat?
Dr. Michael Roizen: We always thought the sun controlled sleep and that was about it, but the hormones that the sun affects aren't just melatonin but are insulin as well and the sensitivity of a number of receptors. What has happened over centuries, if you will, is because we always had our lifestyle tuned by the sun, eating more early, less water, and eating in a smaller window, an eight-hour window, so that you get ketosis every day, does two things. It changes your circadian, if you will, genes, and it changes the genes that function relating to metabolism and aging.
Willy Walker: You were there at your desire and if you decide you weren't going to do it, your parents are still going to see if you are coming home, and figure out the next steps.
Jim Courier: Yeah, that's really well put, and that's really accurate, Willy. My parents really stressed effort over results. I think that gave me that soft landing available to fail. I also wasn't someone that my parents said, “Oh, you're destined for greatness. You're an amazing athlete. This, that and the other.” They were focused more on the day-to-day trying to be a good person, try to behave in a way that will be out of you. Do your best and eventually good things will happen, as opposed to some of my peers who had all these expectations placed on them that they were destined for greatness. In the subtext of that is if you don't become great, you're a failure. I was never propositioned with what failure for me would look like other than a lack of effort.
Willy Walker: Trying to buy time before she came onto the stage. Jamie, as an aside, back up to 2010, and I'm on my IPO roadshow, and you say, “Are you going to Kansas City?” I say, “I am going to Kansas City.” You say, “Would you go meet with my money manager and pitch Walker & Dunlop to him? He runs a very successful mutual fund called Buffalo Funds.” I go in. I don't impress him. He decides he doesn't want to invest in Walker & Dunlop, to which you say, “I'm going to invest a million dollars in Walker & Dunlop's IPO.” How'd that turn out for you?
Jamie Lee Curtis: Pretty darn well.
David Rubenstein: I think persuasion is what is the key to life in many respects because in life you have to persuade people to do what you want if you're going to get somewhere. You persuade your partner, your spouse, your children, your employees, and your investors that they should do what you want, and you have to learn how to persuade. You can do it by talking effectively; you can do it by writing effectively; or you can do it by leading by example and having others follow you. In building my firm, I had to persuade people that it was a good organization to join. Persuading Jim Baker or George Bush to join a firm that was small was not easy at the time. Persuading a lot of very talented people to come to Washington DC to do investments rather than New York was not easy from time to time. Getting investors to buy into investing in a global firm was not so easy because people tended to want to invest in firms that only did buyouts or only did venture capital or only did private credit and so forth. I've tried to be persuasive and sometimes it worked, and sometimes it didn't.
Governor Larry Hogan: Victories and losses. I think you learn so much out of the times of adversity. One thing I learned, if I didn't already know it, was that I try to make the most out of every day. I give it everything I've got. I've got roughly a year left in my term as governor. I'm term-limited here till January of 2023. I'm still running through the tape. I'm still working as hard every day as I was. There's no quit. I get up every day trying to say, “What else can we accomplish? How can we get more things done? How can we help people?” I think it's making the most out of every day and not letting it… Sometimes you can prepare for things and plan. Sometimes things are gonna hit you from out of the blue that you're not expecting, like your largest city breaking out in the riots or a scary personal diagnosis. But I think working through those things and keeping focus and keep moving forward, I think that's one of the keys to success.
Mo Gawdat: For someone in Ghana to have the same access to information as an MIT student is an incredible value to the world. There is a point at which, however, we have to question when is enough. As we started our conversation in my description of the three inevitables, the fact that AI has already happened and it will not stop and it will be smarter than us and so on. The reason for this is the prisoner's dilemma that we've created as humanity. If Google develops AI, Facebook has to develop AI. If China develops AI, America has to develop AI. It's that dynamic that we've created that will not allow us to stop. This is going to happen now.
Governor Jared Polis: One of the things we really cherish about Colorado is Colorado for all. We celebrate everybody, no matter who you are, who you love, where you're from. We have people who are descendants of Native Americans who've been here for thousands of years. We have people who arrived in Colorado last week from Mexico, China, or New York, and they're really all part of making Colorado an even more amazing place. But people will ultimately remember the work we do on the issues that matter. Whether you are gay or straight, black or white, universal kindergarten and preschool which we now have in Colorado are huge benefits for parents, for kids. When you're driving down the road, you’re able to reduce the traffic with our infrastructure package no matter who you are.
David Rubenstein: There are academics who fight against this idea that the pace of change has never been faster, that's always what we perceive, and that it's demonstrably not true. I don't buy that or whatever. Maybe it's true, and it's all mirage, but it sure feels like the pace of change has never been quicker. If you look at, what are the skills that people need to develop, let's say, in college or early career to be successful and to be hireable and all that, things like coding and data analytics are important, but the number one general skill is adaptability. So there's an assumption that the business model and the strategy of a company are gonna be not tweaked, but upended within a few years.
Governor Bill Haslam: We've become so separated and polarized. There's no political benefit in actually solving a problem. Take immigration. There are some really good reasons we haven't solved that problem. Number one, it's really hard and complex. Number two, both parties make money off of it. The Democrats say, “Republicans are keeping kids in cages at the border,” and Republicans say “Democrats just want open borders and let everybody in.” I'm willing to bet almost everybody listening to this has gotten a mail or an email to that effect, depending on which political party has their information.
Chris Davenport: How do you deal with fear? I don't really deal with fear because fear is what happens when you've already made a series of mistakes and then you're like, “Oh sh**, this isn't good. There are so many crossovers and I know you know this because you and I talked about it a lot. There are so many crossovers between athletics, being an athlete, in business. The way that you look at the risks that you're going to take, whether it's an investment or a new business partner or all these things, I think about it the exact same way. I really believe that a big part of my success as a skier and as an athlete has been that ability to look at it from what we would consider a business sense of “what's the outcome I'm looking for? Where's my tolerance? What am I willing to do to succeed and all of those things?” It's fun to use ‘jumping off a cliff’ as a metaphor for being a successful businessperson. But it's actually quite poignant, I think.
Robert Glazer: Any purposeful organization is some shared mission or vision or some strings of commonality that bring you there. For instance, I might pretend I'm very religious. I might have atheists that are my friends. But if I have a religion club on Sunday morning, I probably don't want the atheist coming and telling us all morning that everything that we're doing is wrong in that context. That's not the purpose of that organization. That doesn't mean that someone is not friends with. I think in any organization, you have to have some shared values. But a hundred percent, that does not mean that people are all the same or they think the same. They're rallying around both the vision of the organization and some shared rules. I think this is true for sports teams, religions, organizations, or otherwise that work and then endure. They have some shared purposes or some values that they hold true.
Chris Fowler: I knew what I wanted to do when I was 10 years old. Everything I did in college, I was busy. I was doing all kinds of jobs, making all kinds of connections, and doing everything I could in the media to get the skills necessary, make some contacts, and have fun because I loved the variety of jobs I was able to do. That was more important to me than being in a classroom, actually. I knew from a very early age, from age 10, my grandmother turned me on to sports, what I wanted to do for a living from listening to Chicago area broadcasts of Cubs games, Blackhawks games, and Bulls games. I've been living the dream I’ve had since I was 10 years old.
Ezra Klein: There's a great line in that report that being homeless is a full-time job. It's very hard to, with nothing, pick up and move. One of the key things in this is that homelessness is fundamentally a housing problem. There's a very good analogy in a book by that same name, Homelessness Is a Housing Problem, to think of it as musical chairs. If you have 12 people, but you have 14 chairs, and during the game of musical chairs, somebody breaks their leg, that person is still going to find a chair. Now, if you have 11 chairs and somebody breaks their leg, that's the person who's not going to get a chair. That's a way to think about the relationship between individual risk factors like mental illness, joblessness, et cetera, and homelessness. If you have enough chairs, you can have a lot of those problems and still get a home.
Willy Walker: Netflix, the catalyst that made it, that all of a sudden F1 went from being a global sport to being a U.S. sport?
Greg Maffei: A couple of things, I think I started by saying, “In life, you hope you do the right thing. But there's a huge amount of luck involved.” Other claim to credit and props too, besides hiring, Chase was hiring, helping hire Sean Bratches with Chase. Sean came from ESPN and Sean probably more than any other person was the person who said the story needs to be about the drivers, not about the cars. The late Sergio Marchionne, who ran Fiat and Ferrari, used to think, “My car is the star.” From his ESPN background, Sean understood that telling the story of the drivers was compelling. These handsome young guys who had lots of competitive issues internally against each other, thinking about the car, all the team stuff, there was a great narrative here. It was gonna be a compelling narrative for our fans. And he was really the one who went to Netflix. The Lion's success has many fathers, but Sean is probably the true father, went to Netflix with the idea, and drove it. As I said, “You can work hard, you can be thoughtful, and this was absolutely working hard and being thoughtful and the right idea.” But we got lucky that Box2Box and Netflix did such a great job. That having been said, there are many other elements opening up and telling that story that were important. Fan festivals that didn't exist. Driving the cars around Trafalgar Square and doing donuts, opening up social media. The prior management would not let the drivers tweet and would not let them be on Instagram, believing that would reduce the appeal for our broadcast partners because we were giving away products. We flipped that on its head, and now, Lewis Hamilton has twice as many Instagram followers or three times as many as Tom Brady. We opened that world up. Netflix, you can go race drivers on Twitch and race them in video games. Changing the perspective of Netflix was an important part, but not the only part, and opening that story up to our fans was a huge part of what made the difference.
Steve Case: But the main point is that entrepreneurs can start and scale companies now anywhere, even more so post-pandemic where there's more flexibility in terms of how people can live and work. They're building on expertise in sectors that we have that domain expertise, having that trust and having relationships really is helpful. Freightways and Chattanooga were able to do that. We've seen that in health tech with cities like Baltimore, Maryland, because of Johns Hopkins. Also Under Armour is headquartered there, or what's happening around the Cleveland Clinic or MD Anderson in Texas or Mayo Clinic in Minnesota. Some of these cities are not necessarily the cities that you were just saying. Instead of focusing on San Francisco, New York, and Boston, let's pick 20 others. These wouldn't make the cut, but really interesting things are happening there. That to me is the main takeaway from the book. Most people who have been doing interviews say, “Okay, I get Silicon Valley, I get New York City is really growing, I get biotech in Boston is pretty strong. What are the next one or two cities that are going to rise?” It's not one or two cities; it's really several dozen cities. Our investment strategy is really trying to prove that. Yes, some clustering makes sense, but building on domain expertise and specific cities also makes sense.
Stephen Sullivan: We've built a brand of inherent authenticity and people are resonating with that. I don't think we were on any of their radar until a few years ago. When the business is in the outdoor space, if a business starts to surpass $50 or $60 million in revenue, it starts to get on the radar. We'll be north of a hundred million in revenue this year. I know we're on the radar now because I heard from some friends and the other companies. I think you'll start to see more true competition where people will come. They'll take harder looks at our product line and try to mimic things that we do really well and do them better and cheaper, the classic scenario.
Peter Cook: We're in real estate now. What segment of the real estate industry will provide the greatest training ground in the near term and growth opportunities over the long term?
Willy Walker: Data center is an incredible emerging industry today. There are only a few players in it. Most of the data centers are being built by the hyperscalers. It's not an industry that is nearly as large and developed as the big four food groups of office, retail, hospitality, and multifamily. But clearly, if you can get a good job in data centers, it is the future. It's where the capital is going to go. Hopefully, it's not completely where our economy is going to go, because I'd love to see humans having buildings that they can actually work in and live in. But, boy, oh, boy, data centers are a hot spot.
Gloria Steinem: It's not like it's some evil plot. It's that there are gender roles and there used to be much more than there are now. The idea of self-esteem was adjusted to the gender roles. For men, self-esteem had to do with accomplishment outside the home, with earning, with having authority, however, it was phrased. For women, it had to do with marriage, children, and the house itself. All of the things that Betty Friedan in her important book was trying to say, “Wait a minute, we're all whole people. We all have ways that we wanna show our worth.”
Jeffrey Wright: Yeah, you might be right. I was anxious about being on stage for whatever reason. Even before I was acting, I think I remember having dreams about it and having experiences where the words wouldn't come. It was the classic actor nightmare, even though I had never really done it except for the Christmas school play.
John Hope Bryant: Capital really is a coward. Capital wants to find a safe place to sit. It wants a high return but the lowest risk. I get that. That's fine. But every now and then capital has to have a vision. Capital leaders have to have a vision and faith is what they do. We don't have all the facts. People need to buy into your vision. I think the biggest companies with the biggest brands that are most successful went above the bottom line. Here's the profitability, income, and balance sheet. Okay, I get that. But what's your enterprise value? That's what I think I did with my brands—creating enterprise value. What did Amazon do? Walmart? What did Walker & Dunlop do? What did all these companies do that really created multiples in their stock value? Their enterprise value is they laid a value system above their product value. Apple was the first device that had emotion. Steve Jobs wasn't a great programmer; he was a great designer and a great marketer and was in the act of a great programmer. But nobody has thought about it yet. They think about the emotions that Steve Jobs had, the value and the passion he poured into this product.
Alex Rodriguez: Over the years with Stuart, we've been approached by so many people saying, “Why don't you go get into malls 10, 15 years ago? Remember warehouses?” Stuart says, “Look, here's what we do. We do apartments, we do it better than anybody, and that's the only thing we do.” I think in a world where everyone's trying to scale and diversify, being a master of one thing and doing it like Stuart's been doing it for over 40 years is our greatest asset in this company. Roy, Aaron, and our leadership group, I think this is really important, and you notice the focus.
Willy Walker: Why is it so hard to build affordable housing?
Priscilla Almodovar: Why is it so hard? Look, there is an affordability crisis. You have rents going up higher than income, the same thing with home prices. You have today, if you look at renters, as you know, a third of renters are paying more than 30 percent of their income on rent. It all comes down to numbers. It builds. You need land. It costs money, but you need land. You need the financing, and you have to charge the rent and to keep it affordable for today's households is not easy. It's a combination of land and financing. NIMBY is very real when it comes to low-income housing. I saw a lot of that at Enterprise. People are seeing it today. All stakeholders need to have the courage and willingness to build more housing together. That's ultimately, I think, what we're seeing now in this country. Supply has been an issue for a long time since the GFC. But it's really coming to us now given the affordability crisis. We are in an unprecedented time of unaffordability in this country.
Frans Johansson: I would say that this is one of the greatest predictors of success. Are you baking in the fact that there are going to be failures? Are you baking in the fact that you're going to have unexpected insights? Because if you're not, you're setting yourself up for failure. When you look at any breakthrough, really any size, you will see that basically, they all have these elements embedded in them. Right now, we are doing the SONA on Zoom, this call, but eventually, it's gonna find its way on YouTube. YouTube started out as a dating site. The idea was people upload the videos, and then people vote on whether or not they want to date you, which is a really bad idea. But then two of the founders went to dinner and they're actually filming that dinner. They realized they had no way to easily share that movie, but maybe they could do it on their platform. Maybe try this instead. Let's go in a different direction. That sequence of events, which of course became YouTube, is extremely common. I don't see it being incorporated into execution plans even remotely enough.
Willy Walker: I could invest in any one of the five major food groups. Which food group do you really like right now?
Dr. Peter Linneman: If it was stay-rich money, I'd do multifamily. Does everybody get what I mean by staying rich?
Willy Walker: And if it was get-rich money?
Dr. Peter Linneman: I probably would do office as a broad statement. I wouldn't do any office building. But I would do office, and I think it has NOI problems and it has capital and doesn't want to be their problem. I think the NOI problems on some properties will be resolved with time and I think capital will come back. Maybe not to where it was, but we'll come back to properties, not all of them, but much as it did in retail. It didn't come back.
Willy Walker: But retail sales have been so strong.
Dr. Peter Linneman: But it came back remarkably to the stronger retail properties. If I had get-rich-money, I would probably do office work with interestingly low leverage.
Willy Walker: Where's your get-poor money going?
Dr. Peter Linneman: Where's my get-poor money? If I really had to say, data centers.
Willy Walker: Do we have to see Europe and China get back going to get global GDP and our growth going? Is it okay for the US to be the belle of the ball for the next decade and continue to have all eyes and all investments coming to our shores?
Mohamed El-Erian: Right now there's a huge sucking sound. We are sucking in capital from the rest of the world and for good reasons. You make more money in the U.S. That is that simple. Because of that, the capitalization of U.S. companies continues to go up, and the rest of the world continues to go down. That seems great with two important qualifications. One is that there's a concentration issue here. There are a few companies, as you know, that account for a lot of what's been happening. But the other thing is that we live in a world of interdependencies. You cannot outpace the rest of the world without at some point having the consequences of living in a bad neighborhood. I keep on reminding people how good your house is and also the function of the neighborhood. The global neighborhood is problematic because of what's happening in China and because of what's happening in Europe. That spills over to the emerging world. The hope is that we remain up here and the others start converging toward us over time. That is a healthy global economy.
Ivy Zelman: No, I think overall we continue to feel that the market's going to be challenged. Affordability is significantly stretched. We have no question. I guess, the general view is that rates are going to be higher for longer. With affordability likely to be negatively impacted by the continuation of constraints on available supply, home prices are likely, in our opinion, to still move higher. While incomes might start to grow at more parity with home prices, we're still going to see upward pressure that might alleviate the problems that we see at the entry level. The overall market is going to continue to be in what we call a slow grind—higher, but not that optimistic for significant growth.
