Willy Walker
Chairman & CEO of Walker & Dunlop
This episode of the Walker Webcast featured Willy Walker’s opening remarks from the Walker & Dunlop Summer Conference in Sun Valley.
This episode of the Walker Webcast featured my opening remarks from the Walker & Dunlop Summer Conference in Sun Valley. My talk touched on several topics, from housing prices to the impacts of AI and global leadership.
The state of the market
Last year, during the Walker & Dunlop Summer Conference, the macroeconomic environment was much different than it is this year. Since then, luckily enough, we haven’t seen any more interest rate hikes, the stock market has surged to all-time highs off the back of the AI boom, and we’re now patiently waiting for rate cuts to begin.
However, from a surface level, the world still seems to be very precariously perched on the edge of a cliff. There’s a tremendous amount of political uncertainty and ongoing wars, and on top of that, the average person has been battered by inflation over the past couple of years.
Although the times that we’re going through may seem scary, with some believing that what we’re living through are some of the worst times in history, it’s important to remember that we, as a country, have gone through much more turbulent times. At the end of the day, we’re not fighting any major wars and hyperinflation hasn’t happened.
Optimism for the US economy
Despite all of the current challenges we’re facing, the U.S. is largely winning. Our economy is doing tremendously well, outpacing all of the other G7 nations in terms of GDP growth in 2023 (and projected to outpace them in 2024). Although we have a much larger economy than all of the other G7 nations, we’re still growing the fastest, which is a huge win for the people and the businesses that call the U.S. home. On top of that, the United States scores higher than almost every other major economy in terms of economic welfare and income per capita.
Why are people still pessimistic about the future?
However, despite all of the economic data that points to us living during one of the best times to be alive, in one of the best countries to live in, people still remain pessimistic about the future. However, this pessimism isn’t showing itself in the numbers. Consumer confidence, while not at an all time high, is certainly not low either. We’re currently seeing levels of consumer confidence similar to what we saw prior to the Great Financial Crisis.
I believe that part of what is driving the pessimism is that a considerable amount of our GDP isn’t coming from U.S. businesses. Instead, over 40 percent of the U.S. GDP is comprised of spending from federal, state, and local governments. Generally speaking, people don’t like this, as over 80 percent of people disapprove of the way Congress is handling its job right now.
Inflation, Fed action, and CPI movement
We’ve found out the hard way that the Fed is incredibly focused on backward-looking data and paying no attention at all to forward-looking data. The Fed began raising interest rates way too late. Now, looking at inflation data, it would seem that the Fed is late to the party again. Over the past few months, inflation has flattened out considerably, with a tremendous amount of readings in the 2-3 percent range.
Despite all the good data that we’re seeing (that’s fundamentally flawed and likely overstating inflation figures), the Fed is not yet cutting rates. This flawed inflation data has killed the chance of a rate cut over the past few months, which has wreaked havoc on the real estate market.
Interesting housing developments
There is a considerable amount of debt that has been maturing lately or will mature in the very near future. While some people have locked in fixed interest rates for the next few years and are sitting pretty right now, others have some tough decisions to make. Many people are faced with refinancing now at much higher rates and lower valuations, which leaves them with the tough decision of whether they should do a cash-in refinance, or liquidate the asset, take their profits, and move on.
Unfortunately, selling off assets isn’t as easy as it was just a couple of years ago. Just a few years ago, there were lots of big check writers out there, so you could command a premium for a portfolio of properties. Now, the sovereign wealth funds and Blackstones of the world aren’t willing to write those big checks, meaning it’s often best to break up a portfolio and sell it off piecemeal, if you choose to sell.
The AI framework: Shapers, makers, and takers
It’s no secret that artificial intelligence is going to change the world in a huge way. The direction and extent of that change may be unclear, but it is clear that there are going to be three buckets of people that will shape the world with AI: shapers, makers, and takers.
The makers are the people who will venture out and develop artificial intelligence. These are going to be companies like OpenAI, Anthropic, Perplexity, and Microsoft that are responsible for innovating and developing the space.
The shapers are big enough and have enough dry powder to make huge AI investments. The “shaper” companies are going to be companies like Salesforce, Amazon, JPMorgan, and other large/megacap companies that can afford to make these large-scale investments.
Lastly, the takers are the rest of us—the people who take what is developed by the makers and the shapers and leverage it in our own businesses and lives. The takers in the AI space are going to be the everyday users, from the gas station on the corner using AI to implement intraday price management to multibillion dollar manufacturers leveraging AI to make their production lines more efficient.
Want more?
By design, the Walker Webcast provides insights for life based on thought-provoking commentary across a wide swath of industries. To see our list of upcoming guests, subscribe to the Walker Webcast today!
W&D Summer Conference Opening Remarks by Willy Walker
Willy Walker: Good morning, everyone. It is a true pleasure to have all of you at the 2024 Walker & Dunlop Summer Conference. I saw my friend Ethan Penner when I was walking in, and I listened to a podcast that he did with Bob Hart, who's also here. And in their discussion, Ethan was talking about why he used to have these fantastic parties at Nomura Securities back in the 1990s for all of Nomura's clients. And he referred back to Michael Milken Predators’ Ball which predated that. And he said what Milken did in the Predators' Ball was he had all of these investors who would buy the bonds, but they didn't know the operators of the companies. And so what he did was he put on these great parties in the Predators' Ball to introduce the buyers of the bonds to the operators of the companies. And that's what he did in the CMBS days in the 1990s to bring in all the bond buyers with all the operators of commercial real estate. And, this past weekend, after the Allen & Company conference here, I had a friend of mine, Greg Maffei ask me, “Why do you put on your conference?” And I said, “The reason we put on the conference is to have companies that own assets meet other companies that own assets to be able to trade those assets, and then the people with capital to put to those assets to meet the operators of the assets.” And I loved it to some degree, I never thought about the Predators' Ball into what Ethan did at Nomura, into the Walker & Dunlop Summer Conference. But it is a real joy and pleasure to have all of you here with us today.
There are two people who are not here with us today that I just wanted to point out. The first one is Howard Smith. Many of you know Howard well, he was our president for many years and retired in January of this year. And this is our first Walker & Dunlop Summer Conference without Howard in many decades. And so we miss having Howard here. And then the other one is Mike Malone, who was our lead independent director, who tragically died about a month ago from a heart attack. And many of my Walker & Dunlop colleagues went to Mike's funeral in Charlotte, North Carolina. But many of you in the room knew Mike. We loved Mike, and we miss him dearly. And we're thinking about his wife, Julie, daughter Jenna, and son Jack.
I wanted to start the presentation today. Going back to last year. Just a couple of slides that will remind us of where we were. Some of you who were here last year. Remember me saying that this was a bunch of Walker & Dunlop bankers and brokers who were on vacation waiting for the markets to come back? I'm very happy to say that they are all back and they're all working really hard. Here was the slide saying, “Hey, Jerome Powell, slow the you know what down. Take a break, and these rate increases are killing us.” Remember, the last rate increase was a year ago. This July meeting was the last time that the Fed raised rates. And fortunately, they did. That slide is Jerome Powell. Everyone's squawking at Jerome Powell to say you're killing us. Obviously, he stopped raising in July of last year. Now the question is whether they cut either in this meeting or any time this year. I'm really looking forward to Mohamed El-Erian on rates, on cuts, and what his outlook is as it relates to what the Fed is going to do. And then the final one from last year was, some of you may recall, I put this picture up to say that the great tightening is really hitting everyone in the room, kind of below the belt. I'm very pleased to see all of you back here. That the hit below the belt has been sustained. The question now is, as it relates to CRE, how soon do we get rate relief? How soon do fundamentals recover, particularly in some more stressed asset classes? And when can we all get back to doing what we typically do which is making money for our investors?
I put this slide up to this clicker. These are scary times and I think all of us sit around and think about inflation. We think about interest rates, we think about war and conflict. We think about the political situation inside of our country. And we say, “Man, this is really scary.” Has it ever been… this is as bad as it's gotten. The one thing that I constantly think about is everyone says that this election is the most important election of our lifetime. And guess what? We say that every four years. Over and over. Yeah. It's important. It will have a big impact on the future of this country and the future of our world. But every election is important. And so I wanted as I thought about how scary the world is that we're living in today, I wanted to remind us all that anything is as scary as that. It ain't anything as scary as Selma. It ain't anything as scary as the gas lines of the 1970s. It ain't anything as scary as the beginning of the Gulf War.
By the way, many of you remember last year, I had David Yarrow come speak, and I had one of our guests come up to me last night, and he said, “You cost me $350,000 last year.” And I looked at him. I'm like, “What did I do? Did we mess up on his deal? Did we do some financing he thought was going to do X and it did Y.” And he said to me, “No, that guy David Yarrow is so great. I've become friends with him in about $350,000 of his artwork.” I thought that was great. But that picture up there is of a Brazilian photographer named Sebastião Salgado, who I have a particularly fond spot for and have a number of his works. But that's in the first Gulf War of an oil field that Saddam Hussein had gone and put on fire in Kuwait. And obviously, nothing close to that day. And quite honestly, as we talk about a scary world. Nothing nearly as tragic and almost life-changing for all of us as three days ago. Thank goodness President Trump survived. I shudder to think of what would happen if that bullet had been two inches to the right. What would have happened to our country? What would have happened to our world? Whether we literally would be sitting in these seats right now? And so I put those up there as images to say we do very clearly live in a scary time, in a scary moment, in all of our histories.
At the same time, we know that we, as a country, have the strength to get through challenging times. The thing that's interesting about it is this, we're winning. The US is winning. Look at this growth for the US versus the G7 economies in 2023 and 2024. We are growing so much faster than the competition. Mohamed El-Erian would tell you in those numbers… look at the difference between the US and Germany. That kind of GDP growth for an economy as big as the United States of America versus all of our big competitors. We're winning. And yet, as my friend Danny Gabriel has said to me a number of times, he said, “You know, I put these frogs up there as someone who sits there” and says, “Yeah, from an economic perspective, we're winning.” But Danny constantly says to me, “Yeah, but we're not winning on softer things.” And so what I did was I pulled this data up. It's done by two Brookings Institute economists. If you go to the right-hand one on this, it shows income per capita. So clearly, income per capita, the US versus a couple of our G7 competitors as well as some emerging markets. We kill it. But Danny's point to me is, “Yeah, but there are other things in life.” There are things like leisure and the amount of time you spend on leisure, the things like health care, there are things like lifespan and how long you live for. So what about comparing the US to other countries where you can take more time off or where you have a better socialized health care system? And you can see in this study by Brookings and these two gentlemen who wrote this book called Beyond GDP? Welfare Across Countries and Time, we still are up there even though the UK closes that gap from an economic standpoint because of those other things. The other thing that I think is interesting about this slide is the emerging economies. Look at what happens when you bring in lifespan, health care, and leisure time. They actually go backward. They go from being pretty strong from a GDP per capita standpoint to going backward as it relates to what their quality of life is all about.
So as you look at those numbers about the US winning, many people still sit there and look like that gorilla. We say times aren't good. We're still pissed off. We're still sort of like, “Yeah, we've beaten everyone, but we still feel unsettled about where the economy is, where our country is going, all of that.”
Consumer Confidence Index. This slide fascinates me for two reasons, one, if you look at where consumer confidence is today. Think about consumer confidence back in 2007, pre-GFC housing boom. The economy is on fire. And then, obviously, you can see what happened to consumer confidence the moment we hit the GFC. But look, we're on the same consumer confidence today as we were back in 2007. The other thing that I look at is this chart and look at where consumer confidence was during the last Trump administration. The data would tell you from an economy you just look at GDP growth, you look at per capita income, you look at household net worth, you look at all sorts of things. And those numbers shouldn't have been that high. And I look at these numbers consistently and I say there was something that was going on during the Trump administration that made consumer confidence spike. Because look, the numbers today, I just showed you the numbers today look great. But look at where consumer confidence is today versus where it was between 2016 and 2020.
One of the reasons I believe our consumer confidence and outlook are so bad is because of the swamp and what goes on in the swamp. So take a look at this slide, and please leave this slide up. Federal, state, and local government spending as a percentage of GDP. Check out those numbers and look at it. 1930, 10% of GDP was government spending. Fast forward to 1980, 32%. Fast forward to 2021, 44% of GDP with state, local, and federal government spending. Go back to World War Two. That's the last time we had so much of our spending. Coming from state, local, and government. And the bottom line, people say, “Oh yeah, but that's got a lot of stimulus in it.” This graph doesn't lie, folks. It's gone from 10% up to 44%. Let's just say that ‘21 and ‘22 were anomalies as far as how much government spending was as a percentage of GDP. It's still well beyond where it should be. And I think that one of the big things that frustrates a lot of people is that Washington is having so much influence over our world. And what do we think about Washington? Not a lot. The thing with this slide, you look at this number, it's gone up from 62% to 82% on the disapproval side and from an approval side from like 35 down to 18 in the last three years.
So we said, there we go. DC's doing everything, and we don't like what DC is doing. So a couple of things. For a moment, if we can. And don't worry, I'm going to criticize both of them. On this one, Trump's trade tariffs are massively inflationary. Goldman Sachs just put out a report. If Trump's 10% tariffs across the board were to be put into place. Their calculation is that it adds 100 basis points to inflation. We're all in this room experts on five basis point move in the inflation rate to get into the Fed cutting. We've all become overnight economists on what's going on with owner-equivalent rent and how that plays into the inflation print and the CPI and the PCE and all that great stuff. And we're sitting here thinking about electing a president who has said very clearly from this dialog right here with Time magazine. I'm putting in 10% tariffs. Massively inflationary. There was a slide I was going to put in here that shows you the ten-year movement the day after the debate between Biden and Trump. Many of you in this room know the ten-year spiked dramatically in the three days after that debate. Why? Because people said, “Trump's going to win.” He's going to put in his tariffs. That's going to be inflationary. And rates are not going to go down. They're going to go up. Directly into the markets. That is not going to be good, and it's not going to be good for housing, and it's not going to be good for everyone in this room.
On the flip side, today we have President Biden going out, and he is going to say, “We need to have a 5% rent cap on all multifamily properties in the United States of America.” Now, the good news about that is it's never going to get through. The bad news about it is that we have a president of the United States who is out there basically telling every renter in the United States that they're paying too much for rent which is just awful. Because it ain't true. And it ain't true not that there aren't people who are paying too much of their take-home pay in rent. That's a reality of the world we're in. But as everyone in this room knows, the only way we get out of that is through supply. More supply, not less supply.
One of the things I wrote to the regulator yesterday when I saw that Biden was coming out today with this announcement, I wrote to her, and I said, get ready because the three biggest tools that the federal government has to create more multifamily housing in America is Fannie Mae, Freddie Mac and HUD. Fannie Mae, Freddie Mac, and HUD's lending volumes for 2023 and the year to date in 2024 are way low. Not just way low, way low to the point of being out at the tail of where they have been as it relates to a market participant. So here you have the three biggest levers that the federal government has. Add to that LIHTC (low-income housing tax credits), which, thankfully, they just increased appropriations on. So fortunately, the appropriations for LIHTC coming into the market next year will be higher than it was last year. But at the end of the day, unless Fannie, Freddie, and HUD, which are their three biggest levers, are out putting capital into the market, the concept they'd go out and say, “Oh, guess what we want to cap rent. Makes no sense.” But he'll say it today. He's going to say it from a legislative standpoint, and there's absolutely no way this could get through the House or the Senate. And so it's not going to happen. And I had the head of the MBA yesterday and the head of NMHC yesterday, and a bunch of other people texting me back and saying, “Don't worry, it's not going to happen.” But as everyone in this room knows, the rhetoric is awful. It hurts the industry and it hurts our country.
So in the backdrop of all that, the debate, former President Trump almost assassinated three days ago. How is it that the VIX is sitting where the VIX is? So those of you who follow the VIX you know exactly what it is to those who don't know exactly what the VIX is. This is the volatility index in the market. This is what tells the activity, the volatility of people shorting stocks, going long stocks and saying, “Wow, we've got a lot of things to be nervous about in the economy. We've got a lot of things to be nervous about in our world. And as you watch the VIX spike you can get a good sense that markets are going to sell off. Look at where the VIX is right now. It's just been this straight down since the pandemic. We've got no volatility in the market today. And to give you a sense of this slide's got a lot of data on it. But check this out as it relates to the VIX and how the VIX tells you where the market's going to go. So here's the VIX back to 2000. You can see it spike in 9/11. Then you can see it really spike in the Iraq war. and the light blue line underneath it is what happened to the S&P during VIX spikes if you will. So that's the S&P on the top. You can see the bottom left to upper right. You can see GFC, obviously the VIX goes through the roof during the GFC. And the light blue line on the bottom of the S&P obviously falls off commensurately. One of the interesting things on the double dip in the flash crash. Check out how the S&P did. It might be too hard for all of you to see. But on the double dip recession where we were really fearful that a double dip was going to happen. S&P sold off dramatically. The flash crash. Many of you forget about the flash crash that was there. But obviously spiked volatility. And then the pandemic brings it back in. On the far right-hand side of this slide, I think what's really interesting is to look at the volatility that we had during the pandemic at the beginning of the great tightening from a VIX standpoint. And look at what happened to the S&P commensurately up above. Big sell-off on the S&P when you had that kind of volatility in the market.
So one of the other things to think about as it relates to volatility, I mentioned Ethan Penner at the beginning. The CMBS market depends on a lack of volatility. You can't sell, you can't underwrite, you can't price CMBS when you have a VIX that is bouncing all over the place. And so one of the things that we've actually seen at the beginning of 2024 is as that VIX mellowed out and spun out to the bottom, and the volatility went out of the market. The CMBS market has actually come roaring back. First six months of 2020 for CMBS volume, I don't have the actual number, but it's up dramatically year over year. And one of the things there is, as I said previously, with Fannie and Freddie, so out of the market, many of you in the housing space you're able to access CMBS loans.
I would remind people that we went through a decade where CMBS was the forgotten stepchild. And a lot of you didn't go and access that market. You did that for a reason because a bunch of you remember what it was to do with special servicers in 2011 and 2012. Now that they're back and the agencies aren't out there putting out a competitive bid to compete with either CMBS or life insurance companies in some instances. Just remind yourself what you're getting. Not saying don't do it. Not saying that you're not getting more proceeds. Not saying that you're not getting a great rate. But just remember, if you will, the after-sales service. It's really tough to work with special services when you have problems. And I'm not trying to say that every life insurance company or every agency lender is the easiest thing in the world to deal with. But there was a reason many people fled away from CMBS for almost a decade after the GFC. And it seems those memories have sort of gone away at the beginning of 2024. Again, we do a lot of CMBS lending, so please do not assume that I'm saying disparaging things about CMBS borrowing. I guess borrower beware.
So I think this slide is pretty interesting as it relates to inflation, Fed action, how it's spun out for us, and what we should be expecting as it relates to Fed movements. Dr. El-Erian will talk a bit when he and I talk about the rearview mirror and how the Fed is stuck looking in the rearview mirror and that all their policy is A, too data-driven, and B, it's just looking backward. And this slide, I think, just says it perfectly. Look at where inflation had run before the Fed acted. They're looking at that back data saying, “Oh, everything's okay.” And then all of a sudden bang, it's up at the top at the peak. Then all of a sudden, they do all that raising. And now we've been out in this flattening area. We've been out in this two and a half to 3%, not at target, but we're definitely down from where we were. And they're still rearview mirrors. They're still looking at that big. They're looking at the downdraft. They're not looking at the flat tail. And so getting the Fed focused a little bit on forward would be really nice.
Many of you know that Peter Linneman is a dear friend. We do our quarterly webcast together, and on the day that the CPI data came out last week, Peter scratched all these numbers down on a piece of paper and sent it to me. He said, “Check this out.” Many of you heard me talk about owners' equivalent rent and how much of a distortion that is in the CPI numbers. This is Peter's take. He wrote all the data down. Or is that the moment that the CPI data came out. And as you can see on that, you've got year-over-year growth in rent of 5.1%. By the way, there are a lot of multifamily owners in here. How many of you got 5.1% growth in your multifamily portfolio last year? I don't see one. Not one. Anybody. I got one. Yeah. I'm going to have fun with you in a second, Bob. So raise that hand. Bob just raised to say, “Just remember that.” Anybody else? I got one in the back. Yeah, we'll watch it. So, one person. Bob owns a bunch of properties. Workforce housing in the middle of the United States, middle America, goes to markets where a lot of you aren't and has built an incredible business at Monarch. And then Will Blodgett just raised his hand, very focused on affordable housing all over the place. He's based in New York, but Will owns a bunch of affordable housing properties, so shows you where you can get that rent growth in the market today. Clearly, if I asked a bunch of my market rate friends in this room how you doing in those Sunbelt markets where there's been oversupply, you're not getting close to that, and you've probably got a negative number on it. Anyway, rent is 5.1 year on year, shelter is 5.1, owner equivalent rent is 5.5, all of it at 3%, and net out owner equivalent, you're at 2.2%. You're right at the Fed's target almost. You'd go to the right and look April to June and May to June, and they're negative when you go on all and they're negative when you go stripping out the owner or equivalent rent.
Many of you have heard me talk about our equivalent rent before. It is laughable that 27% of the CPI is made up of a survey that the Bureau of Labor Statistics does by calling people across the United States and saying, “Bob, if I were to rent your house, what would you rent it to me for?” And Bob said to me last July, “I'd rent it to you for $4,000 a month.” And now they call him back this July. And they say, “Mr. Nichols, how much would you rate your house for this year?” And Bob goes, “Well, I haven't sold my house. I got a fixed-rate mortgage on it, or I own it free and clear. My cost hasn't really gone up at all, but I saw the guy down the street. He sold his house for a really big price.” I see all these things out in the market that say that housing has gone up and that it's a really tight housing market. Maybe I rent it to them for $4,200, $,4,400 bucks a month. That sounds about right $4,400 bucks a month. And they take that, and they write down $4,400 bucks a month. And they do that across 8,000 people in the United States. And they pull all that together, and that's how they get the owner's equivalent rent. Bob's cost of owning that house hasn't changed an iota. The insurance that he pays is outside of that in the CPI data. The cost of a light bulb to change in his house is outside of that in the data. I don't know if anyone else in the room is as much of a geek as I am, but I've literally looked at the 80,000 line items inside of the CPI data to see exactly what they calculate those 80,000 pieces for. All that's outside of it. And so that's what's driving this number. And it's unbelievable because A, it's a lagging indicator. And B, it's a false data point for 26% of CPI. And the Fed is looking at that to determine interest rates. Now I'm certain that Dr. El-Erian will say to us that the Fed is looking at other things. And they also looked at PCA more than looked at CPI. And the PCA has housing and shelter is a smaller component of it. Nonetheless, let's hope that they start to look at these numbers and not continue to look at a blunt CPI number.
Now, after Peter sent me this note, some of you may have seen the webcast that I did with Peter recently from Chicago, where Peter claimed that, again we were going to have three rate cuts in 2024. And I said to him, “Peter three, the world says it's two and maybe even one.” And so he said, “Willy, it's going to be three.” And I said, “Okay, Peter, here's the deal. A broken clock is right twice a day. So if we have two cuts, I'm going to call you a clock. If we have one cut, I'm going to call you a cuckoo clock. And if we have three cuts, I'll kiss your feet.” And he said, “You're on.” So Peter sent me that data, and then he sent me that photograph. He is picking out his shoes. And you will see me live on a Walker Webcast kissing those boots. If we end up getting three cuts.
Complicated slide, please, Jacob, leave that up. But there are cuts in the brown lines. There's the line that goes straight across the top, is your Fed funds rate. SOFR is tied right to it. The black line in the middle is the ten-year. The blue line at the bottom is inflation. The reason I put this complicated slide up is to go to the left-hand side of it. The yield curve inverted in November of 2022. And since November of 2022, we've been in an inverted yield curve. We must get back to a normalized yield curve. We must! How much does that flat line across the top have to get cut to get below that black line in the middle? And do you think the two of them move in tandem? And that's the real point I want to make here, is that a lot of people, I think, are sitting there going, Fed starts to cut and the ten-year crashes down. Folks, it can't. It has to get back to a normalized yield curve at some point. So, Powell came out yesterday and said “We need to have visibility to get to 2%,” but we don't have to actually beat a 2% ten-year rally overnight, I don't know. Last I looked, it was at 417. It's probably even below that today. There's no doubt that we will get a reaction to any Fed cut in the ten year. But the concept is that the ten-year and Fed funds rate will come down together. It just can't happen. We're going to have to get to normalized inflation and then over whatever your inflation rate is. And Dr. El-Erian will talk about the fact that he thinks the inflation rate will stay higher for longer. In other words, not at the 2% target, but something between 2.5 and 3. But if you've got an inflation rate of 2.5 to 3, you need real interest rates to be somewhere between 150 and 200 basis points above that. So unless you think that the Fed funds rate goes crashing down from 525 to 1.5 again. The ten year is probably going to stabilize somewhere in this 400 to 450. Just go to the left-hand side of this graph. It's going to get to that. And so the only reason I bring this up is that there's a lot of thought that, “Oh, Fed funds rate comes down, and the ten-year comes crashing down with it.” It might for a little bit of time, but it's hard to believe that it stays down at that level. And it's impossible to think that we will stay in an inverted yield curve forever.
So interest rates. My buddy Bob Nichols and I. Bob Nichols rates me in January of this year. And he goes ten years at 350 by your conference. I said, “No way.” Bob said, “I will bet you that the ten year is at 350 by July 16, 2024. What do you want to bet?” And I said, “I'll bet you a case of beer.” So I took 450. Bob took 350. And guess what Bob drove up to Sun Valley in yesterday a Budweiser beer truck to bring me my case of beer. He actually bought a trophy with him. I haven't seen it yet, Bob, but we're going to make it sort of like the Stanley Cup. We're going to do an annual guess on where the ten-year is, and we're going to put the winner of it every year. And we'll keep bringing the Budweiser trophy up to this conference to see who got rates right. Obviously, neither of us will ever be right on a consistent basis because picking and figuring out where interest rates are going to go is truly impossible.
Let's dig into some of the numbers. Sun Valley Conference with me wouldn't be right without a couple of animal photos. So we'll jump through the animal theme here pretty quickly.
This is an interesting one, hospitality, Union Square, Hilton Hotel, two pack in San Francisco. Two Hilton hotels are owned by Park Hotels, the REIT. They both defaulted a year ago. When they put the loans on those buildings in 2016, the value of those two hotels, the Park 55 and the Union Square Hilton, was $1.6 billion. They had a $750 million CMBS loan on them that they defaulted on a year ago. Rev par at those two hotels is about 250 bucks a door. ADR is about 120 bucks a door and Eastdil Secured as we are trying to sell those two hotels for a combined value of $550 million today. $1 billion of value was lost on those two hotels. Park Hotels did a study and found that there was an 80% correlation between office occupancy and CBD hotel occupancy 80% correlation. So if you own a hotel in a city that is not back in the office, good luck. CBD hotel, not vacation in Miami, and vacation in wherever the heck you go travel to do that. But CBD hospitality is super stressed, particularly in those markets that have low office occupancy.
Let's look at the office market. 277 Park Avenue. Some of you may have heard about this one. 277 Park Avenue had a $750 million loan that matured two months ago. It had a 3.6% coupon on the loan on 277 Park Avenue. They went to the market to refinance out that $750 million loan, and they just re-did it with a new $500 million loan. That's a $250 million cash-in refi, folks. Now, the owners did it because they signed 160,000ft² of new leases to bring the occupancy of the building back from 80% up to 96, or 97%. So they've gotten it back to being fully leased by good leases. Sumitomo has 50,000ft² in the building. When I heard all that, I was like, “Okay, that's cool. They got it back up to 98%. That's Maine and Maine, in Manhattan.” You'll put $250 million of fresh equity in an office building in Manhattan except for the fact that 700,000ft² in that building of 1.2 million is leased to J.P. Morgan. And J.P. Morgan's new headquarters right down the street delivers in a year and a half. They have to know something about JP Morgan's intentions on that 700,000ft² to go put $250 million of new fresh equity into that building to refinance it right now. There's no way they wouldn't. But I'm surprised because I think the new headquarters of JP Morgan in New York is going to have 3,000,000ft² in it. Can't imagine they don't have space for that 700,000 feet to go into that 3,000,000 square foot building on Park Avenue. But that's the type of stuff that's happening in the office market today. A $250 million cash-in refi to hold on to that building.
Let's go to housing. The koala bear. There are a number of you in the room who have a smile on your face that looks just like that koala bear. And the reason is that this is one of our clients in the room who has over $2 billion of debt on their portfolio. That is 32 fixed rate loans all with Fannie Mae. The average coupon rate of 3.76% is fixed over $2 billion of UPB, and the average maturity is September 2028. If that's your portfolio, and the person who has that portfolio is sitting in this room with their feet on the desk right now, you're loving life. You fixed out all your financing. You don't have a single floating rate loan on your portfolio, and you're just cash flowing to Sunday and back. You're the koala bear. Chillin' like a koala is what my team put on top of this one.
So then there are those of you who have what is called this is my cash-in refi slide. Because the owl has figured out how to stay in that nice little burrow and blend in with the thing. But this is on a cash-in refi. We did one like this two weeks ago. $34 million loan is outstanding, we couldn't size a new loan big enough to take out the 34. So it was a $4 million cash-in refi. We put a new $30 million loan on it. In doing that loan, they bought down the rate. So they spent $500,000 to buy 25 basis points on the rate to get the rate down to about, I think it was a 554 or 556 coupon rate. So they bought the rate down. And rather than going for five years, as many of you in the room have been doing, they went for ten years. So think about that for a second. $4 million cash-in refi. They love the asset. They couldn't get out their last financing fully with the new loan. But they said, “Now that we've got this down at a 553 or 554 coupon rate, we want to push term out and go ten years, and we will now get the operations going, and we will maintain the asset, and we'll have an asset we love.” We're seeing a lot of that today. The other thing that we're seeing is someone sits there and says, “You know what, go do the financing for me. But you're coming back to me, and you're saying it's cash-in refi. I don't really like that. Go sell it.” So now the owl is flying out of that nice little borough and saying, “I'm done with this thing. Let's go sell this asset.”
We have an asset that we're working on right now. We went out to the agencies, life insurance companies, and debt funds. We used a value of $153 million as our appraised value on the asset to get the loan. We got really strong quotes from Fannie, Freddie, KKR, NYSTRS, and a bunch of other capital sources on the agency side. The spread was 168 basis points, super solid, full term IO five years, great loan. Went to the client and said, “There's your loan.” They said, “You know what? That doesn't do it for us. Take it out to market and sell it.” So we did a BOV at $153.3 million, went out to market, and got a bid on it at a 1.5% discount on the $153.3 BOV. As many of you in the room know, the market so far this year has been discounts of around 3% off of a BOV, as high as a 5% discount on a BOV to get a 1.5% discount on the BOV, super solid. Client said to us, “Now go back to the financing route,” where you're like, “What do you want?” So interestingly, as we went back to the financing route, that $151 offer turned into $153.2. So, we'll see whether that transaction actually goes off right now.
But the reason I do that is a lot of people are sitting there saying, “Give me the financing. Take a look at the sale, and I might toggle between the two and figure out which I want to do.” But obviously, in some of the cash-in refi, there's a lot of equity value if you go and sell it. You've still got a really good return for your partners. And so a lot of people are saying, “Rather than go back to my partners, ask for more equity, I'm just going to sell the asset.” On the sales side. Pre-great tightening. A lot of people in this room who had portfolios of assets would come to us and say, “Is there a premium for selling a portfolio?” And because Starwood and Blackstone and a lot of other big capital sources were looking for scale, we could take that portfolio to market and get a premium price for it. 5% premium if you could aggregate assets. So on a portfolio like that, we could take that to market and say, “Great, there's some big check writer is going to come in, and you might get a premium for that.” In today's market, what we're doing is we're going to people who might have a portfolio of assets, and we're saying that the individual assets probably sell better than the portfolio. There just aren't the big check writers out there today to say, “I'm going to pay a premium for the actual individual assets.”
Now, one of the things that our investment sales group is doing is they're going out, and they're driving pricing at the individual asset level, and then trying to see if we can get a portfolio sale that has the aggregation of individual assets and giving the seller the opportunity to sell them all to one buyer or break them up and sell them as individual assets. But in today's market, there aren't those big check writers out there, sovereign wealth funds that want to walk in. We went and pitched for a very large portfolio. As I talk about the portfolio, you will know exactly what it is, but I probably shouldn't mention what the name of the owner was. But we went, and we pitched, and we told them this was in October of last year. We said to them, “Look, there is not a $4 billion core check out there from some sovereign wealth fund that's going to walk in and buy this portfolio for $7 billion.” It's going to be broken up, it's going to be sold off in pieces. And we'd like to break it up, sell it off in pieces. One of our competitor firms, to remain nameless, walked in and said, “We have great contacts in the Middle East, and we're going to get a sovereign wealth fund to come in and write that $4 billion core check, and we'll sell it all as one big portfolio.” So the seller liked what they said more than what Walker & Dunlop said. They picked the competition, unfortunately. And guess what happened? Exactly what we told them was going to happen. They couldn't find the $4 billion sovereign wealth check. They broke it up, and one portion of it was sold for $2 billion to a large private equity firm. And now you all know exactly who I'm talking about. The reason I say that is only that we knew that check didn't exist, and yet our competition came in and said, “Oh, yeah, we can go find it, and we're going to go get it.” And they didn't. And so that's why the market right now is looking like those individual penguins going off the end of the glacier rather than being sold as a group of assets.
On this one, this was supposed to be a half-built beaver dam, but my team pulled out a picture of a beaver doing something in his dam. I don't know what it is, but on the right-hand side is the asset that I want to just talk about for two seconds. We're also seeing a lot of rescue capital out there. And many of you in the room who have rescue capital are putting money into deals like this. But this was a multifamily project in Bentonville, Arkansas. It was partially constructed. And this was a year ago when we got called in because of SVB and the banking crisis. They had a construction loan from a local bank that couldn't continue to fund. Interesting to think back. It was only a year ago when all of us were really concerned about the banking system in the United States. It's only a year ago. That was a lot of pressure for FDIC insurance levels to go up because no one would leave their money in the banks and some real fear about where the banking system was going. A year later, they all passed their stress tests. Nobody's really worried about a banking crisis in the United States today. Interesting how quickly time changes.
But anyway, on this asset here in Bentonville, we were called in because the bank stopped funding the construction loan and they had an 80% LTC construction loan. So we put new equity into it. And we went out with them and found a 65% LTC construction loan. Right now, we're projecting about an 18% IRR and a 2.4 multiple on our capital in that deal. But there are those deals that need that type of rescue capital today. And need your equity our equity, what have you.
One final thing on housing. I got a couple of other ones quickly. You all see the smoke in the sky today here in Sun Valley. Insurance costs I don't need to tell you we're going up precipitously. CRE insurance costs have gone up 2X in the last decade. So that's across the entire portfolio. That's across all asset classes 2X. From ‘21 to ‘22 insurance costs on multifamily in Miami went up 28%. The insurance cost on multifamily in New Orleans went up 28%. Insurance costs on multifamily in Salt Lake City went up 21%. It's not just Miami and New Orleans that are having insurance costs go up dramatically. And Deloitte did a big study on insurance costs, and it is 98% correlated to climate change. We can sit around and say, whatever. The climate is changing, and it's having a direct impact on every single one of your bottom lines. Every single one of them.” Dr. El-Erian is going to talk, and we talk about the fact that our energy transition is wildly inflationary, but it's something we must do. To everyone in this room if we don't figure this thing out on insurance, it's going to drive your costs through the roof.
So housing starts. You can see here the blue is single-family housing starts. The darker color is multifamily housing starts. I don't need to tell most of you in the multifamily industry that starts on the multifamily side have gone from 5 to 600,000 a year down to right now, the projection is about 300,000 shovels going in the ground today for delivery in 2 to 3 years. Many of you are buying based on that chart. You're sitting there we're going to be undersupplied in 2026 and 2027 on multifamily. I'm going to go buy today because I'm going to get rent growth in the out years. I'm happy to buy today with negative leverage. And, either flat to negative rent growth because you see what's going to be coming ahead. On the housing front. This is a single-family home building.
The thing that I thought was really interesting, Ivy Zelman and I had a great discussion two weeks ago on the Walker Webcast about the single-family and the multifamily industry. One of the interesting things on this slide, as you can see the amount of new housing starts that are being done by the publicly traded homebuilders. So check that out. That's from 2000, where they had about 23% market share, to 2023 where they have 55% market share. The publicly traded homebuilders have a couple of things that the privates don't have. A, they have the ability to take down land in a way that the privates don't. B, they're figuring out how to entitle land quicker and better than the privates. And then, finally, they have a lower cost of capital. So interesting to see the market share growth of the publicly traded homebuilders. Ivy's take on that is that the trend does not stop. They continue to run roughshod on the local and smaller homebuilders.
On the commercial side, this is the NAREIT index. I thought it was interesting to think about the growth in the capital markets as it relates to REITs and the overall market capitalization of REITs. That's a $1,300,000,000,000 of market cap from the GFC up until now as it relates to the NAREIT index.
The more interesting one, I think, is this. I know there are people here from Starwood and from Greystar and sorry you're not on this slide. The reason you're on the slide is because you're not public in the vehicle that is out there. But for the publics, we can pull the data from Ares, Carlyle's, Brookfield, KKR, and Blackstone and look at how much of their funds in CRE have grown. And check this slide out. It's quite something. 2019 $1.6. trillion dollars, 2023 $3.3 trillion. Total capital is controlled by those five firms. So the question that I have on that is, in the single-family space, you're going to see the publics continue to grow. They need access to capital, they need a cheaper cost of capital. With that amount of institutional capital sitting inside of major private equity firms. You don't need the public markets. You got it all right there.
AI: I know Barry Sternlicht, we'll talk about AI a bunch tomorrow because I've listened to a bunch of his recent interviews, and he's big on AI and the growth that it's going to bring. I would bring a chart up. I stole this from Peter Teal. Peter Teal spoke at the Aspen Ideas Festival two weeks ago, and he said, “Look, there's a lot of talk around AI, and everyone's really excited about AI.” But think back to the dotcom revolution. Everyone knew that the internet and commerce on the internet were going to grow, and there was a lot of speculation and a lot of people out there. And he said, “You know, the company that everyone thought was going to be able to grow and do well was Amazon.” But if you bought Amazon stock in 1999, it took you until 2008 to have that stock be in the green again. So look at the Amazon stock chart from if you bought it in 1999 whatever that is an obviously split-adjusted price of $4.50. It took until 2008 to get back to the stock price of Amazon being at $4.50. The point he was trying to make, and the point this slide is saying, is there's a lot of hype around AI right now. And if you go and you bet on any AI company, let's just say Open AI. They may or may not be the winner, but they also might have a stock chart that, for the next decade, looks like that. We know directionally it's right. The one other thing I'd say is that my team put a slide in here for Nvidia. I said the one difference between Amazon at this time and Nvidia at this time is that Nvidia is printing money. Amazon was not printing money there.
The one other thing is, if you bought Amazon at $4.50 in 2008, you've done 25x your money since. And then one other quick thing on this slide. There's one person in this room whose name is Willy Walker and he bought Amazon right there. And at that time, for me, a $50,000 investment in Amazon stock at what was then $0.50 a share was a big investment for me, and I held it. From 2001 until just about 2002 and a half. And I kept looking at this red. I actually bought it for $15 a share, and it just sat there, read, went to 13, went to $12.50, went to 14, and I sold it. I haven't actually gone back and done the math, but I think it's worth a couple hundred million dollars today, and I sold it. Butler!
This is from Rodney Zemmel, who runs all digital transformation at McKinsey. And I thought the framework was really helpful for us to think about AI. He calls makers, shapers, and takers. And I think the term takers sounds derogatory. It's not. But it is everyone in this room. So the makers are going to be the people who go out and make AI. It's Microsoft, it's the Open AI. They're in there making it. And then you've got the shapers, the companies that are big enough to really invest in it, like Salesforce and JPMorgan. And they're going to shape AI to meet their needs. And then there's the rest of us, the takers, the people who sit there and say, “the OpenAI or Microsoft, who created a tool. And I'm going to use it in my business.” And what I think is important to think back on is this. If you go back to the beginning of software development, no one in this room was trying to compete with Microsoft or Apple to create software. They went, and they created the software. So they were obviously the makers. Then there are the people who are big enough companies to say, “I'm not going to use Microsoft Excel. I'm going to go get Oracle to create a system for me and an enterprise-wide software system that is customized for my company.” J.P. Morgan. And then there are the takers, all of us who sit there and create macros inside of Excel and continue to use Microsoft Office for all the years that we've been using it.
The reason I put this up there and try to bring that framework into it is I think there's a sense amongst most of us that we're missing something in the AI revolution. We aren't investing enough money in AI or we should be building tools on AI. I would honestly say, “Take a deep breath. Someone's going to create a tool that you're going to be a taker of.” And I think the other piece on this slide that's so important is the quote from Rodney at the bottom, “Digital and AI transformations are first and foremost people and talent transformations.” It's not how you build the technology, it's how you use the technology that's going to make the difference in your business.
Four people who will have a big impact on the world over the next year. Just a couple of quick things. First of all, we will see whether the woman in the upper left is the Democratic nominee or whether President Biden stays in the race. On the upper right, a lot of talk about if Trump is elected, striking a deal with Putin over Ukraine, allowing Russian oil to flow again, watching oil prices come down, and watching the stock market go up. That's not an outlier scenario, if you will. That could very easily happen.
On the bottom left, I think a lot of people have forgotten about Taiwan. Taiwan still makes 80% of the advanced chips in the world. We're looking at Nvidia, with a market cap of $3 trillion. They're designing these chips. They're still being made by Taiwan Semiconductor. They're still sitting in Taiwan with massive geopolitical risks to it. So we can't forget about China and what might happen in Taiwan. We just can't. We've got a lot of risk sitting there. And then, on the bottom right, the situation in Israel is so distressing. The terrorist attack on October 7th is so painful and distressing. And what has happened in that part of the world subsequently has been super challenging. And I have many Jewish friends in this room. Many Jewish colleagues at Walker & Dunlop. I am hopeful that we can see an end to that conflict and we can see some type of peaceful settlement that allows the Israeli people to move forward, feeling safe and protected. But whether Bibi stays in power, whether he loses power, and the resolution of that conflict, I think is super important. It's super important to our nation, our people, and our brothers and sisters who are Jewish and mean so much to the American economy. And at the same time, it also has the other side to it of our Muslim neighbors and friends and partners and colleagues. It is an absolutely distressing conflict and my only hope is that we can get some light at the end of the tunnel there soon. I would think that the US election has some significant impact on that situation.
Oil: Muhammad will talk about it in a bit, but the energy transformation in the United States is happening. The global transformation from an energy standpoint must happen. And it is going to be inflationary. It's going to cost a lot of money and it will be inflationary. But it is underway, and it will continue to be underway.
One of the other things, many of you know is Kate Moore, who has spoken at our conferences in the past at BlackRock. One of Kate's big themes at BlackRock right now is infrastructure. The two places that BlackRock is investing a lot on are energy transformation and infrastructure. So two things are coming up for our world and for investors over the coming years and decades.
Some closing notes. The first is that W&D when I joined the company in 2004. That's my dad on the right-hand side, who's sitting in the back of the room. Dad, love having you here. And that's Howard Smith at the bottom right who just retired as our president after a fantastic career at Walker & Dunlop.
This is Walker & Dunlop from a month ago in Las Vegas at our all-company meeting. And so I love thanking the people at Walker & Dunlop who make up Walker & Dunlop. But you're the clients who interface with our team every single day. And you're the ones who not only interface with our bankers and brokers, but you interface with the analysts. You interface with the servicer who sits in our call center in Massachusetts and asks for an escrow to be released. So what I'd like to ask our clients to do if I could be so bold, is to just say to all of you, “Would you please thank the people at Walker & Dunlop that you work with every single day?” Applause.
We did not design that photo to look like the United States of America. But as I looked at it, I was like, “How do we get it?” We even got Florida right. Sorry, Alaska, and Hawaii, but it was really quite something that we made it look like the US.
On the flip side of it, this slide, I love. This is W&D versus our competition. This is the total shareholder return over one year, five years, and ten years. As you will see on that slide, we not only beat them all, we read them all really handily. And the only reason we're able to do that is thanks to you. Everyone in this room who is a W&D client has trusted us with your financing, with your sale, with your appraisal, and with some service to make you successful. And as we have met and exceeded your expectations, I hope, you have allowed us to completely outperform the competition. And so what I want to ask my Walker & Dunlop colleagues to do is to have all of you thank our clients who are here for giving us their trust and confidence and making us that successful. Applause.
Related Walker Webcasts
2025 Economic Outlook with Mohamed El-Erian
Learn More
January 8, 2025
Finance & Economy
Post-Election Playbook with Isaac Boltansky
Learn More
November 27, 2024
Finance & Economy
Your Company Needs a Space Strategy with Matthew Weinzierl
Learn More
August 28, 2024
Finance & Economy
Insights
Check out the latest relevant content from W&D
News & Events
Find out what we're doing by regulary visiting our News & Events pages