Webcast transcript:
Willy Walker: Great to have you. I was gonna start by wishing you a Happy Birthday tomorrow and you corrected me that your birthday is June 29 not July 29. But I will wish you a belated birthday, and I will also I was going to say that we share the July 29 day because that's Sheila’s and my anniversary so tomorrow's our 21st so to my wife Sheila happy anniversary Hun and I would say, George she is very much looking forward to getting back on the tennis court with you soon and holding on to her title of the Hincapie-Walker Thrilla and Manilla tennis match the two of you had last summer in Aspen.
I arrived home last night, to a large box from our friend Charlie Huebner at the US Olympic and Paralympic Committee with a ton of swag for Sheila’s, and my support of team USA and so, I put on this polo shirt which actually has a US flag on it, and this is the shirt that the golfers are wearing in honor of your five-time participation as a US athlete on the US Olympic team and we’ll talk about that a little bit a little bit later.
So, George you need no real introduction to those people who have any clue about the cycling world. 17 time Tour de France racer, five-time U.S. Olympian, placed second in the Paris- Roubaix Race in 2005, which is still the best performance of any American ever in that race. And you were the domestique for Lance Armstrong, Alberto Contador and Cadel Evans and their Tour de France victories. So, you've been on many, many winning Tour de France teams. There are a lot of listeners who might watch a stage of the Tour de France and say I don't get what's going on here I don't get yellow jersey, green Jersey, polka dot Jersey, all that stuff so without going into too much detail in the various jerseys for a moment, explain what a domestique is and what that role is and making it so that someone like Armstrong or Evans is going to win the Tour de France?
George Hincapie: Sure, well first thanks for having me on Willy. I got the text message from you a couple days before the end of the Tour de France, and I said sure I’d love to be on. And I I’m actually in shock of how many people have emailed and texted me say you're on Willy Walker’s podcast! I’ve done a lot of interviews in my life, but I’ve never gotten so many people excited about you being on an interview as much as they are right now so thanks for having me on it's a pleasure.
But as far as my role in the Tour de France, a lot of people like you said aren't aware of all the tactics that go on in the tour, and how important positioning is and somebody like a road captain making the calls along the road, I mean you have 200 guys in a peloton on roads sometimes the size of bike path so, no matter how strong you are and how much power to weight ratio you are, if you aren’t able to navigate yourself in the front of the peloton usually away from most of the crashes and out of the wind, then it becomes a real struggle for a leader. So my role was always to keep people like Lance, Goodell, Contador and even Mark Cavendish out of the wind, in front, and in the safest part of the peloton without them using their matches, so to speak, to keep in that position. And I know a lot of people wonder why you know I would always be happy with that position, but I knew that you know, I was one of the best in the world at that particular role, so I chose to focus early on in my career, you know doing something that I knew I was one of the best in the world at.
Willy Walker: So, talk about that George in the sense that most of us think of cycling as an individual sport similar to tennis, golf, or marathon running. And yet, at the same time, particularly in the Tour de France and the grand tours it really is a team sport and, as I think about that as it relates to personality of athletes you look at tennis players and golfers and they're singularly focused on their own individual performance. Whereas, if you look at football players and hockey players, they know and realize that their performance is only as good as the teams. How as a cyclist, how do you kind of manage those two mentalities, if you will, as you face racing in either a grand tour or an individual race?
George Hincapie: I mean it's a great question and you know, there is, the team aspect is ever present in all these sports like you mentioned. Tennis yes, it's an individual sport, but think about the team that goes behind a tennis player their physios, their coaches, their mental coaches. There's a team behind all these athletes and in cycling, the team is on the road with the leader. And it's a very difficult job and it's actually a very important job within the team and the riders knows how important having a strong team is and the leader knows how important it is to have a good domestique behind them. And it's a very valuable position in the sport of cycling so even though you don't get the sort of accolades you would if you won the actual race within your world, and within your team, within your organization, it’s a highly regarded role.
Willy Walker: As you're growing up in cycling and you're winning amateur races and everyone's looking at you as being one of the very best in the world. How, is it that all of the sudden once you get into the pro ranks they sort of say okay you're a domestique, you're the one who's going to be able to go for the yellow jersey, you're the one who's going to be going for the sprints etc., etc., I mean. Where is it in one's professional career that you sort of get slated for your role on where you'll play into that whole kind of ecosystem?
George Hincapie: So, before a rider turns pro, they're typically the best in their state, one of the best in their country and they're in that role of leadership before they turn pro. Once you’re very good, everybody has won several national championships, world championship, and now it's their job. It's sort of a natural progress of you know you get to the pro level, and even though you had been winning races your whole career now you're racing against guys that have been winning races their whole careers as well and you're with the best of the best the top 1% of the entire world. And basically the legs do the talking and there are some guys that recover really good, and there are suited for three weeks of you know racing back-to-back every day over 100 miles a day and never really shown weaknesses. There are some guys that just survived those three-week races. There are some guys that are really good like me at helping others get through those three weeks of racing safely and saving as much energy as possible. So, it's just sort of a natural selection process once you turn professional.
Willy Walker: So, you won the time trial in the Tour de France in 2003 and Primoz Roglic won the Olympic gold in the time trial by over a minute, by the way today. What was it like going to the Olympics George? Was there anything unique about going to the Olympics versus going to the Tour de France or other big international competitions that you went to and participated in?
George Hincapie: Yeah so, the Tour de France in the sport of cycling is the biggest event that we do. The Olympics was unique in the sense that we're able to be around other athletes. You know, in the tour, in the cycling races you're in this bubble. You race the five to six-hour stage, you finish you go on the team bus. You don't really see anybody; you don't talk to anybody. And then, when you go to the Olympics, all of a sudden, you're in the Olympic Village surrounded by thousands of athletes all over the world and it's a lot more of a social experience. Our event was one day and the Olympics are usually two to three weeks long, so you can hang out for a couple days after your event, meet people and just sort of try to soak in the whole ambiance of being around some of the best athletes in the world. It's a super special and unique experience.
Willy Walker: Yeah. So, Lance Armstrong at the end of the ESPN documentary on him that ran last year just after the Michael Jordan documentary said, “the country of America idolizes, glorifies, worships George Hincapie. Invites him to races, gives him jobs, buys his shit.” How’d you become the face of American cycling, George?
George Hincapie: Um, that's a great question I think I’ve always valued my relationships, no matter who I met along the road and I feel like that's sort of helped me in many different ways throughout my life, even as a, you know as a second or third year pro when I didn't have a team to go. I was a young kid. I didn't have great results that year, but my relationships helped me get on a new upstart team, which at the time was U.S. Postal Service. So, lots of times I feel like just the people that I’ve met throughout my career and kept close contact with have always helped me and I’m always learning from them and you're one of them, Willy, I mean like or not you're a big confidant of mine. I’ve always felt really fortunate about the people that I’ve met, and I've done my best to keep as close to them as possible.
Willy Walker: So, you own an apparel company Hincapie, which competes with the likes of other cycling brands like ASSOS and Rapha and Castelli. Before I get to talking about that we don't have brands, such as Mercs, Lamond, or Armstrong, and so I guess my first question is what gave you the gumption to create your own clothing line?
George Hincapie: Well, that was my brother and I started it back early on in my career and we're always sort of trying to figure out ways, where I would be able to remain in the sport long beyond my career. We had contacts in Medellin, Columbia, clothing contacts with my uncle, and we just kind of started out really small making gloves for a local ride here in South Carolina called Mount Mitchell and then we made their jerseys. It was an 800 Jersey order and we had no idea what we were doing but will figure it out. So, we ended up making that sourcing that, just kind of grew from there. We got help from family down in Metagene. But it was just one of those things where we thought well, we'll give it a shot, and here we are, you know 15 years later, more than 15 years later.
Willy Walker: So clearly your Brother and your Dad has played a big role in your overall cycling career. Many people listening today have worn different types of clothing, either from a bike Jersey, they were given during a charity ride to serious cyclists who are out there, buying either your brand or somebody else's brand. What's the sweet spot in the market, in the sense of how do you position Hincapie up against either the very high-end brands versus lower scale to get more of the market? How do you think about positioning Hincapie versus the other competitors in the market?
George Hincapie: Yeah you got to look at the Rapha’s as like the Prada and the Gucci of the market, you know, there are $350 pair of bib shorts and jerseys where we're in the $180 to $200 range. So, I like to compare this us as like the Gap, or you know Lululemon sort of the everyday brand that's high quality and technical enough to where you can be confident that when you go out in this kit you're not you're not losing any sort of performance by the price being a bit lower than the super high end brands like ASSOS and Rapha.
Willy Walker: And is there anything there where's the trade off in the sense of obviously you've got manufacturing costs and you manufacture most of your product in Colombia is that right?
George Hincapie: Yes, correct.
Willy Walker: And, and then it's obviously the materials and sort of the finish to the product so as you as you try and price against them where are the tradeoffs, as it relates to use it in material cost is it in manufacturing costs? I know nothing about that space, but it's interesting about trying to define what price point you're going to go after and what the component costs are to meeting that price point.
George Hincapie: Yeah so, we try to focus primarily on Colombian fabrics because of the duty relationship we have; the United States has with Columbia. If we make our clothing with Colombian fabrics, we don't have to pay duties on what we bring in which is a big portion of how we establish our pricing and that's why we're able to… I mean it's always a process of finding the new fabrics trying to stay ahead of the game in terms of technology with fabrics which is a bit of a challenge in Colombia. It's not as easy as if you were in Switzerland or Italy. The technology is always coming out of there in terms of fabrics. So that's definitely a bit of a challenge of ours and it's an ongoing challenge we're always trying to you know figure out, stay on top of the fabric game and we have by no way you know accomplished that process but it's an ongoing process and we're comfortable with the fabrics that we're providing today. And the pricing is always we try to remain consistent, of course, it goes up slightly every year, but we try to remain consistent, we have a really loyal following that has been with us for several years and we've we bumped up our marketing, we've bumped up our sales team to try to grow, that following. Once we establish a good relationship with a client, a ride, a company, usually they they're happy with our customer service and they're happy with the costing of our products as well, in terms of compared to the Rapha’s and the super high-end brands. So, it's a process. I’m not saying we have it completely dialed in but we're happy with the way it's going so far.
Willy Walker: How do you just on that as it relates to the fabrics, you wear both Hincapie and then also you can wear anything you want. On product research, do you have a team that does it, are your product research? You said that a lot of different fabrics come out of Europe, I mean, is it that you are either given or ride something and say hey we ought to we ought to emulate this? Or do you have your own product innovation team, how do you do that?
George Hincapie: We have product developers in-house; we have one or two in Colombia and we're about to hire a full time one here. But anywhere I go I’m always checking out other fabrics, to see what's out there and what's new and researching new technologies and then I test a lot of the stuff that we come out with before it goes to market.
Willy Walker: So, a question for you on the overall market, which is, why haven’t the big clothing companies and apparel companies like Nike and Adidas come into the cycling market?
George Hincapie: Well Nike wasn't a cycle market with us, they made our clothing on US Postal Service. They made cycling shoes; they still make a small run of cycling shoes. Adidas was in it with Telecom as well, so they've kind of dabbled with it. That's a great question I’m not sure why they haven't gone all in because the global cycling market is quite big but I’m not sure what the answer is to that.
Willy Walker: It’s interesting that you say the global cycling market because as I was pulling together my notes on this, I did notice that there are a billion bikes in the world and 1.5 billion automobiles, and I just hadn't thought about how many bikes are out there. Now clearly, the billion bikes aren't all people who want to buy Hincapie Sportswear, so there are lots of bikes that are commuter bikes and just get from point A to Point B if people aren't spending additional money on all the other wears. I want to get into the bike market in a moment, but before we get there, closing off on the apparel side of things, everything seems to have supply chain issues right now, how are you dealing with both? I’m assuming that there's significant demand for your products today and are you getting supply chain issues as it relates to manufacturing facilities?
George Hincapie: Yes, the answer is yes. There's obviously a lot of restrictions at our factory in Medellin, Columbia because of COVID, curfews, sometimes we run overtime shifts, and a lot of our employees weren’t able to even get to the factory. Our timeline went from a three to four-week delivery to six to eight weeks, and for the most part, a lot of our customers are really understanding. Especially with the fact that everybody has been affected by the pandemic, but it has slowed down our delivery time and almost doubled our delivery time, which is something that we're not happy with, but we're constantly trying to improve that timeline.
Willy Walker: Has the demand come from the individual consumer or has it come from events that suddenly have gotten a rebirth where there more people doing events than have in the past, or has it been sort of across the board?
George Hincapie: Across the board. We saw a lot smaller teams, sort of your COVID groups that were made, they were ordering jerseys together. Now with the events coming back online we're seeing a lot more events ordering jerseys. We have a partnership with Peloton as well, they order to bib shorts from us and we're happy with the partnerships that we've established and constantly trying to grow that database.
Willy Walker: So, you mentioned Peloton, I was going to get to this later, but we'll jump on it now. A lot of people in the pre-question asked, does George ride a Peloton? And I know you teach Peloton classes. What do you do when you're not out on a bike? Are you on a Peloton, are you on a NordicTrack? What do you use from a training standpoint when you're not outside?
George Hincapie: I actually taught Peloton three or four years ago. Now I’m doing a lot of stuff for NordicTrack and it's a really interesting platform where it's totally different than Peloton. Peloton are in studio classes. Where NordicTrack iFIT you can sort of ride along with me anywhere in the world, and I train you. The video is a camera behind me actually on the roads and you're getting the scenery, we get drone footage, it's sort of little mini documentaries. I do 12-part series. I’ve done them in Hawaii. I’ve done them here in the Carolinas and I also just recently did Croatia. So, you'll start seeing those come online.
Willy Walker: So, for anybody who takes those iFIT classes with George “training you” as someone who has ridden quite a bit with George, that is a somewhat harrowing experience from time to time when George really wants to push you. Hopefully, you have the ability electronically to turn it down or turn it up.
George Hincapie: You can definitely.
Willy Walker: So, George, bike sales, along with apparel, the pandemic has just driven sales to all new heights. I saw a stat by the New York Times that bike sales are up 65% last year and a e-bike sales are up 145% last year. I guess, the first question I’d ask is, any tips for people who are trying to buy a bike who can't find it anywhere on where they can find a bike right now?
George Hincapie: So, the answer is no, I am not sure where everyone can find bikes, but it is more challenging these days and I hope all these new people that are coming to our sport are going to remain in this sport or at least a high percentage of them. It's tough, but they're out there, there are companies like Pro’s Closet and of course eBay where if you do enough research and are patient enough, you can still find some good pre-owned bikes.
Willy Walker: That whole market has changed a lot and we lost you there for a second when you first started to respond to that, but one of the things that we've seen a lot of recently is the growth in mountain biking as well as in gravel biking. I think currently the US market is about 68% road, 16% mountain biking, and 6% gravel. As you've seen the market expand and grow, do manufacturers need to be big in all those different disciplines in the sense that, when mountain biking and gravel biking first started, there were distinct brands for those types of bikes, and there were just the road bike manufacturers. It seems like today, the major brands, like the Treks and the specialized have broaden their brands out to cover both mountain, as well as gravel. Is that a necessary component to being a successful bike manufacturer today?
George Hincapie: I think, for the big players absolutely. Like you said, all the big ones, they all have e-bikes, the gravel bikes, road bikes, and the kid bikes. I think for them to reach scale and they have the production means it’s definitely the only way to stay on top of that game. Of course, you have the super specialized, small, niche brands that are not going to be able to do that, or have the manpower or the finances to be able to produce that sort of lineup because that is a whole other tasks Those companies are still doing well; having their own supply chain issues as well, but the big players are providing all aspects of bikes right now.
Willy Walker: What does that mean George in the apparel space? In the sense that road biking is a bunch of spandex, mountain biking is kind of baggy shorts and a big t-shirt. How do you play from an apparel space standpoint to have a brand that expands across all those, given that the sort of the styles are distinct? I think about my son who's a skateboarder, as you know. My son Jack is not wearing a polo shirt, he's wearing a t-shirt. How do you get the Hincapie brand to kind of push across to gravel and to mountain?
George Hincapie: We already started doing that. We started designing mountain bike shorts, gravel bib shorts and gravel jerseys. Playing around with some leisure stuff, we know that in order to keep growing and to hopefully get to where we want to get, we're going to have to be able to be a player in all of those segments of the sport, so we definitely have started that process.
Willy Walker: There was a big article yesterday in the Wall Street Journal written by Jason Gay who you know well, about Tom Pidcock who won the mountain bike race in Tokyo and him beating van der Poel, as well as van Aert in that race and how those three great riders are all winning on road, mountain, and cyclo-cross/gravel. I think about it, in the sense of all these brands from a manufacturer standpoint and from a clothing standpoint having to stretch across, but one of the other things is these stars in each one of these disciplines are all kind of doing multi-discipline. That's dramatically different from when you were a professional cyclist correct?
George Hincapie: Absolutely, I mean they've rewritten the whole playbook. The things these guys doing, not only are they racing in all these different disciplines, but a guy like van Aert, he's winning sprints, time trials, and the hardest mountain stages in the Tour de France. As an announcer now with my show with Lance it is super hard to predict some of this stuff because these guys, they have no fear. They're able to go from Tour de France to mountain biking to cyclo-cross and they're changing the game with something we've never seen in our sport and it's fun to watch.
Willy Walker: I thought previously that the skills between those three disciplines were very different. Not only the skills of bike handling, but also the skills of how you would train. Slow twitch muscles versus fast twitch muscles. The size of the riders and all that. Is there something that's distinct today in these athletes that allows them to compete across these different disciplines from either a training standpoint, or just their core physiology?
George Hincapie: I think it’s the way they're just not specializing at a young age, they're doing everything which is kind of like what I do with my son now. We mountain bike, we road bike, we ride gravel. I think at an early age they're just trying to not specialize and doing everything they can on the bike to get as much experience as they can. At the end of the day, yes, the Tour de France is very specialized, road biking is very specialized, but if you don't have that bike handling and you don't have that sort of situational awareness in the Peloton, then no matter how strong you are you're not going to succeed. These things like cyclo-cross and mountain biking that are much shorter events and intense with a lot of things going on, technically, I think, are sort of heightening their awareness inside of the Peloton and they're able to use that to their advantage.
Willy Walker: So, you mentioned your son Enzo there and the type of training that you're doing with him. He went to the US Nationals and came in fourth back in June, which is an incredible accomplishment for a 13-year-old. I guess my question would be with a father, like you, with a name and a track record as famous as you are, how do you find that balance between helping Enzo find his own path and his own career and at the same time being there to support him and use all the resources and all the knowledge that you have to impart on him?
George Hincapie: Like you said, we were at nationals, a month ago he got fifth in the time trial, fourth on the road race and third in the Criterium. He kind of worked his way up the podium as nationals went on, which was super fun to see. But for me it's all about him having fun. It’s to the point now where he's like “dad we got to go training, dad we're not riding hard enough” and it's been a few years process to get him there, when he was seven/eight years old, it would be me like “come on let's go for a ride instead of sitting around and watching TV”, but I pushed him on other sports as well, but he ended up naturally picking cycling. The unique position that we're in, yes, of course he's my son and there's a lot of history there and there'll always be a target on his back if he chooses to take this sport to the next level, but he's able to go on bike rides with myself, Bobby Julich, Christian Vande Velde, guys that have been top three-four in the Tour de France, and those are his weekend training rides. Which is sort of cool that he's able to do that and we're not going to races every weekend right now, just because we're able to have fun and go for training rides here at home and mimic real, serious racing just in our backyard. You know, you've been here in Greenville many times we have some incredible roads here and we have world class cycling right from our doorstep with ex-world tour and world class bikers that he's able to bike with, so he's got a fun position, and for me it's all about him having fun right now, as opposed to putting any kind of pressure on him.
Willy Walker: You talk about Enzo doing weekend rides with you and Bobby and Christian, you were just over in Europe for Cadel Evans and the anniversary of his win of the Tour de France, and you were out cycling with a bunch of your old teammates. How hard, do you all go?
George Hincapie: When I biked with them, we went pretty chill. I had just gotten off a plane and had been gone for a month and jumped on a plane to go to Italy for a week.
Willy Walker: Hang on a second, you've been gone for a month, you've been an Aspen racing Lance on almost a daily basis. So, let's make sure that we're being clear here.
George Hincapie: I was using the jetlag excuse, but we rode pretty easy. The longest ride, we did was 50 miles. It was more about getting together and having some good food and wine and then a little bit of riding. Although, the area we in, in Tuscany was gorgeous, one of the best cycling areas in the entire world. I'm sure you have ridden there; it is just stunning. So, it was fun to just go on nice, easy ride. The only time I've ever ridden there was at races, where you're just suffering and you're not able to enjoy the scenery or look around. It's fun to go back there and ride with some old teammates and enjoy the area.
Willy Walker: How hard is that when you're riding with amateurs where everyone wants to pace themselves and say, “whoa, I rode with George Hincapie and I beat him up some climber, and whatever else.” There's got to be a point when you move from being a pro where you're constantly always focused on “all right, I got to hold here” to just sort of like I’m now, if you will a professional amateur and you just kind of let people go by and don't worry about it. Everyone wants to pace themselves off of you. Do you ever think about it anymore or do you just ride, because you feel like riding at whatever pace feels like the natural pace?
George Hincapie: Yeah, you know that definitely happens. People are always testing us, but you know, I performed at the highest levels for my whole life, so now for me it's about having fun. Yes, I like to ride hard on occasion, but you know, I’m not delusional in the sense that I think that I can still beat pro-riders, like people that do it for a job, I know that they're going to crush me at will! But I don't really get bothered by somebody trying to beat me on a local training ride. I know that if I needed to get super fit it would take me a month to get there, but I’m happy with my fitness right now, and it's all about going out and having fun on bike rides and meeting new people.
Willy Walker: So, sponsorship of Tour de France teams. US Postal, it's been shown had a massive return on their investment of the team that you were on, and yet, today, the team sponsorship seems to be, I’m afraid to say, at least in my perspective, sort of these brands that most Americans don't know about; INEOS being one of them. For instance, I turned to Chris Davenport yesterday and said, do you know what INEOS actually does, and I was like I think it's some European insurer or something. But, like the two of us who follow cycling closely have no idea what INEOS is, even though they have one of the best teams. What was surprising to me was the brain and UAE teams and the sponsorships that have come from these Middle Eastern countries. Do you have any sense George why it is that these countries are sponsoring these teams versus just bigger brands that are either insurance companies, financial services companies, and also why more big US brands haven't invested in teams?
George Hincapie: Well, firstly, I can help change that for you, Willy. You want a Walker Dunlop Team in the Tour de France, I can make that happen, like tomorrow. So, we can talk offline about this! But I know, it's a great point. A lot of the supporters of cycling now are just really passionate individuals that own big companies that want to be involved in a sport that they love, and there is still a big argument for the actual marketing that they get out of it. In fact, there was a study from [unintelligible] who are the big French team, it was released two years ago that they get $100 million of marketing value just from the Tour de France alone. So, companies like that that have a real global interest are getting a real good return on their marketing investment from the Tour de France. Lately, we have seen a lot of interest from China, Middle East like you said, and these are just you know people that are passionate about the sport, perhaps wanna promote tourism in their countries, and this is a great vehicle to do that for them.
Willy Walker: What does it cost to sponsor a Tour de France team on an annual basis?
George Hincapie: So, the average budget is around $20 to $25 million. But a team like INEOS is $50 million, a team like Jumbo-Visma, who is second in Tour de France is around $40. So, anywhere from $50 to $20 million on the low side.
Willy Walker: And is most of that going to the riders, to the coaches, to the equipment? Where's the breakdown? Is it like most pro-sports where most of the money goes to the actual athletes? Or is it somewhat distinct that it costs so much to move these teams around and supply them with bikes and cars and all that, that a lot of that is actually eaten up on making the actual race happen and not going to the riders?
George Hincapie: Yeah, I would say, the majority of the budget is rider’s salaries. But a lot of these pro-tour teams have 50 to 60 staff members. Think about that. Plus 20 to 25 riders, so it's about a 60-to-80-person team, so everybody's got to get paid. Of course, got to have doctors on staff, you must have trainers, nowadays you have to have nutritionists, training camps throughout the whole year, travel is a big portion of it. So, there's just... it's a very expensive deal to have a Tour de France team.
Willy Walker: And what's changed the most George from a technology standpoint since you were riding the tour? Is it the materials they're putting into the bikes? Is it the nutrition that the athletes are using to train? Is it the diagnostics that the technology is giving the athletes? Is it bike computers? Bike componentry? Where's technology taking it to a different level than when you look at it and you say, “Whoa, I wish I only had that back when I was doing it”?
George Hincapie: Yeah, a lot of things you just mentioned. Nutrition is a big one. I mean a lot of these guys are training their bodies to absorb more carbohydrates than a normal person can absorb on the hour, so that's why they're able to do these prolong efforts. There's most of the teams now have the software inside of the cars behind the Peloton that's called Bella Viewer, where back in my day, one of my strongest suits in cycling was no matter what was coming on the road, I would usually be able to react really quickly. Let me explain that. If we were on a road the size of a highway and suddenly, we hit a road the size of a bike path, and nobody knew it was coming, then I would usually be ready to react, even if I was sitting in the middle of Peloton, I would kind of sense that. I know it sounds weird, but I would sense that it was coming, and I would get to the front react, or bring my guy to the front. Nowadays, with the software, everybody knows what's coming. The roads are all coming up on the screen on the computer. You have two drivers, you have a driver who's a director, and then the guy in the passenger seat is also a director, and he's studying the maps, and the riders know exactly what's coming. So, a lot of my strong suit as a cyclist has now taken away. Everybody is now reacting. Before if it was 10 miles before you hit a section, and nobody was coming, now everybody knows it's coming so everybody's seeing the master, and that's changing the game a lot in my opinion.
Willy Walker: So, I hadn't actually thought we were going to talk about this, but I want to get your take on this, because the women's road race in Tokyo was a couple days ago. The Dutch team, they were going to win it! They had the four top riders, but because they don't have earpieces, they lost track of how many riders were in front of them, and there was a breakaway group that had five in it, and then they caught four of them, but they didn't know that one was out in front and she won the race. When the number one Dutch rider crossed the finish line, she threw her hands up thinking she'd won, and she actually hadn't. It's amazing to me that they don't allow A) the earpieces in the Olympic Games, but B) that they just couldn't count like how many people were on the breakaway, and they hadn't spoken to each other. Is there anything else to that other than the fact that they just didn't have the technology, George? So many of these road riders are getting dependent on that technology you're talking about. About listening to their managers and telling them you got to go and here's the pace and all that stuff that when without that they're sort of with an arm tied behind their back?
George Hincapie: That is exactly right. I mean, they're getting used to having all this information and then they get to a race like the Olympics, which is their biggest race of the entire year, and they don't have the information. Once you become so dependent on not having all this information fed to you, and you don't have it in, your heart rates at 200, and you're racing for the Olympic Games, it is easy to miss not catching one rider that you gave a 10-over 10-minute lead at the beginning of the race. Like, she's just forgot about it! Which is kind of like shocking and one way, but the same time, if you're dependent on all this information coming in throughout the whole year, and then suddenly, for this one day just happens to be the biggest race in the entire world, you're not getting that information, I could see where there was that slip up. It was a great story, I mean, the lady who won was an amateur cyclist was Pro at one point, and just you know, rode an amazing race and ended up being the best in the world.
Willy Walker: She has a PhD from Cambridge in Applied Mathematics! I mean, isn't that the Olympic Games to some degree? This woman who's an amateur rider who has got a PhD in Applied Mathematics and ends up winning the race was neat!
George Hincapie: It was actually very, very neat. Agreed.
Willy Walker: You talk about their heart rates being up at 200 beats a minute and kind of losing track of things it, it makes me think George about in the Tour de France all those people who jump out on the road. I just want to you know, here you are you're climbing up some big climb, and 10 to 12 million people I didn't know this, I found it out when I was researching this, 10 to 12 million people show up to watch the Tour de France. So, for the 21 days, 10 to 12 million French people show up on the side of the roads to cheer you on. But on those climbs, when you're going up this year, and you're going up they did the double on Ventoux and suddenly, Super Mario jumps out in front of you with this big sign saying, “Go George, Go!” and we obviously had the crash this year that was hugely unfortunate, that woman who had “Hi Grandpa and Grandma” on the sign and ended up causing a huge crash in the second stage, but beyond that which obviously can exist, I always am wondering what's it like when your heart rate is up in your ears and you can't breathe, and you're just trying to get to the top of that, and all of a sudden, some guy in the Super Mario costume jumps in front of you, how do you deal with that?
George Hincapie: In the Tour de France, you’re just so used to it and you're just expecting them not to get in front of your wheel or crash. You know that they're going to get close, and you just got to have faith that they're not going to take you out, but sometimes they do, like we also in the Tour de France today, which ended up being one of the most famous crashes in all of cycling history, some lady took out the whole peloton. So, it's definitely a possibility. It's a scary thing, especially when you're heading down a road at 40 miles an hour. Somebody is out in the middle of road with a stroller trying to take a picture, like, I still wake up with nightmares about situations like that, but it's part of the sport. It’s also part of this beauty of this sport, that fans can get up and close to see their heroes of the sport. But at the same time, I feel like there needs to be more control and you hate to see stuff like that happen in Tour de France, where you know guys that have worked their whole year, their whole lives to be in this position and then taken out by a sign on the side of the road. You never want to see that.
Willy Walker: Yeah, do you think that the Tour de France was smart not to press charges against that woman or to they started to, and then they backed away because they thought that it would do something to the overall nature of the race. Do you agree with that? Or do you think they should have sort of made an example of her saying, “Come out and cheer, but if you do something really stupid and take an entire Peloton down, you're going to have charges pressed against you.”
George Hincapie: I thought a year in jail what they were saying is a bit harsh of punishment, I mean obviously she didn't want that to happen. It was an unfortunate thing and hopefully the people watching that learned a lesson that you know, try to stay out of the middle of the road when the Peloton is coming. I feel like the Tour could do more things as well, have more motorcycles or signage before the actual Peloton comes through with cars, loudspeakers, saying to stay off the road. And they started doing that, after that crash. So, I think they kind of doubled down on the safety after that happened.
Willy Walker: So, beyond your clothing company, you also have a hotel and you also have a series of events that people come and participate and Gran Fondos, and the on the Gran Fondos side, I’m going to kind of broadly talk about that as it relates to bike tourism because getting your insights as it relates to what you know on bike tour companies like Backroads are DuVine and how they've managed the pandemic and what the demand for their product is. Then also the demand for your product. How'd your Fondos do during the pandemic, and then what are you looking at as it relates to future bookings and do you see a significant uptick and people wanting to participate in events going forward?
George Hincapie: So, last year we had two Gran Fondos on the books. One was cancelled because of the pandemic, and we went ahead and did our local one in Greenville. It ended up having over 1500 people, it was an all-outdoor event, we did we did corrals where we separated all the riders by groups of 50 a few minutes apart. Of course, separated on the start line as well and yeah, I was a bit worried about it becoming a super-spreader event, but fortunately knock-on-wood everything went down really well. We never heard of anybody getting sick from the event, so we ended up doing our Greenville event in October, and it was about 1500 people. We usually get about 2000, so it was less than we normally have, but it was a great success, especially just seeing people outdoors and having fun and doing an event was just awesome to see. The fact that we actually were able to do it and we got support from the county and the city was already a huge win for us. This year coming up, we had the one in Chattanooga, which was a huge success, one of my favorite courses, one of my favorite towns in the southeast. Super fun event, people are really happy, and then we have our Greenville one coming up in October, which is our 10-year anniversary and we're ready 50% over where we've ever been in the past, so we're definitely seeing an uptick in people signing up for the events.
Willy Walker: And any perspective on the kind of the bike tourism market from conversations with either our mutual friend Andy DuVine or Backroads or others? Are they seeing significant sort of rider or trip participant uptick in their in their volumes given things opening back up?
George Hincapie: Yeah, I’ve only spoken briefly with them. Backroads actually does events at our camps, at our hotel, and they've been doing a couple already this year. But it seems like that demand has absolutely picked up. Our hotel was 95% occupied in May, 94%, in June, and like 90-ish in July. So, it's been the busiest summer we've ever had in history of the hotel. So, we're seeing a lot of uptick, and not only from cycle tourism, but for weddings and events. The unique thing about our place is that is that it’s a small space with lots of outdoor space, so people feel comfortable going there and we're seeing a lot of action.
Willy Walker: So, when you and I have written up Maroon Bells in Aspen before, as you and I are slogging along on our bikes and people come whizzing by us on e-bikes. E-bikes have brought a whole new dimension to biking and bike tourism. What's your view on that and how much of an opportunity is there in the e-bike market from the various areas of the biking industry that you're invested in?
George Hincapie: I think it's a huge opportunity and I think we're just starting to see the beginning of it. I’m a huge supporter of it as long as people are safe. You hate to see people that don't know how to ride a bike that bomb up Maroon Bells, but then bomb down it and as we all know that could be a very dangerous predicament. As long as people are doing it safely, I love it! I mean, I just bought an e-bike for my dad. He is able to ride with my son and I on the weekends, which he would never be able to do on a regular bike. He still gets a great workout. He’s still outside exercising, and you know getting up the mountains with a little bit of help. I love it! I think it's a great thing for our industry.
Willy Walker: So, you own a hotel. Hotel Domestique in Travelers Rest, South Carolina. How's that been through the pandemic and what's it looking like from here forward?
George Hincapie: So, it was looking a little bit scary back in March of 2020. We had to pretty much shut down March and April. Then May we have opened back up and we started seeing an uptake from May on and it hasn't slowed down. The fall of last year was one of our busiest falls ever and like I mentioned earlier, this summer has been our best summer ever. And the fall, which is typically our busy season isn't even here and we're already over our plan budget for the year. So, we're definitely happy with what we're seeing there at the hotel and our next plan is to hopefully expand and add another you know 12 to 15 rooms. We're working on that now and to bring us up to about 25 rooms, so that would be the next step to do there.
Willy Walker: And anything George, beyond just sort of the normal COVID protocols that most, all hospitality providers did that you and your team did that has changed the way that Domestique is either finding clients or operating on a day-to-day basis or is it sort of business as usual?
George Hincapie: We did all the standard things that we were required to do and of course went above and beyond that in terms of cleanliness and hired new people. Although, as you know, getting the workforce right now has definitely been a challenge. But we're fortunate enough now to have a loyal team up there, and people that like working up there and I think where we're placed and the way the hotel is framed up is that we were small like a mansion and we have a ton of outdoor space. So, from the beginning, people were like I need to get out of the house, I don't want to go to a big box hotel, I want to go here. This is kind of your home away from home where you can do your own thing, be separated from people as you want or mingle when you want to as well, so that's kind of been helpful for us.
Willy Walker: So, I have two questions that I got from Chris Davenport and from my wife yesterday as we were coming back from Idaho to Colorado and Dav’s question was, outside of cycling, which athletes do you think are the best all-around athletes?
George Hincapie: I would say Tom Brady in terms of the way he lives his lifestyle, still going. I think what it’s his 20 something season and how many super bowls now? Seven?
Willy Walker: Yeah.
George Hincapie: Just incredible. I mean his whole diet. I did a podcast for his TB12 company and it's just like their whole outlook on the way they work out and the way their lifestyle is, is next level. So, for me that's definitely one of the best all-around athletes in the world, in my opinion.
Willy Walker: It’s interesting that you went to that and not another endurance athletic field. So, Dav put forth that you would say Nordic skiers because that's kind of the, if you will, most similar to biking where you're just driving your physical body to the complete limit. But it's interesting that you went to someone who was in a in a team sport, not to say that football players aren't incredible athletes, because they clearly are, but it's not an endurance sport. But you’re talking about longevity, really.
George Hincapie: I’m talking about longevity and I’m talking about balance. I mean, as a cyclist and as a Nordic track skier, you're so one dimensional. A lot of these guys are… When I was a professional cyclist, if I went on a 25-minute walk I would be sore because all I could do is pedal the bike. So, for me I when I see an athlete that is so focused on longevity and health and wellness and not only being great at their sport, I feel like that's the next level of being at the top of their game in sports.
Willy Walker: So, the next question from my wife won’t surprise you, which is, that you clearly have this incredible history of being one of the great cyclists of all time and 17 Tour de France’s and everything else that you've done stands on its own. But beyond the cycling, when it's all said and done, what do you want to be remembered for?
George Hincapie: I actually just did an interview this morning and I want my kids to know that I’ve worked super hard. That I never took my position for granted. That I always try to continue to learn, even today. Now that I’m faced with new challenges in business, you know there's no shortcuts to working hard. And also, one of the things that is important for me, as we all know I was part of a crazy era in the sport of cycling, but I want my kids and people that know me to understand that I was also part of that change. That I was one of the riders that stood up for change and said enough was enough. This is going on, this is rampant in the sport, we need to change the sport and we need to go in a new direction and that's one of my proudest things. That I know I was a big part of that change in the sport and I’m comfortable where the sport is today, even though of course I’m sure it's still happening, but it's not the majority and it's not part of the culture anymore.
Willy Walker: I will say that my wife and Dav came to fast, strong, and handsome as the three things that you'd be remembered for. So, on that and as it relates to change George, on the doping side of things, the Bahrain Victorious Team had their rooms raided during this year's Tour de France, and then the next day, Mohoric won the stage and as he came across the finish line he kind of zipped his lips. And I heard your comments on that, on the drive and I’m just curious, was he basically saying you got nothing on us, or was he saying we're so tight lipped that you're never going to find it? In other words, is doping still a part of pro cycling?
George Hincapie: So, like I mentioned, it's a part of it absolutely, but I would say it's a very, very, very, fractional part of it. Back in the day, it was the majority, it was a huge part of the sport of cycling. Everybody knew it, everybody just accepted it. Now it's not really accepted. I feel like Mohoric’s zipping the lips gesture was more of like, you took my laptop, you took my phones, you went through my whole suitcases, like have at it, you're not going to find anything because there’s nothing there. I actually liked his comment, his confidence in his interview, and you know, the fact that he won the stage, and you know it's hard to say why they went through all their stuff. I mean, imagine someone going through all of your stuff and taking your laptop, taking your phone and say you'll get it back in two months. I mean, that kind of only happens in the sport of cycling, but who knows. I mean, I don't know those guys and you know I’m hoping that they're all clean. I know some of them and I’m sure that some of them are clean, but I can't speak for the whole team.
Willy Walker: So, your longtime friend, Mark Cavendish who almost didn't participate in this year's Tour de France ended up, not only participating but winning four stages and tying Eddy Merckx’s record as most Tour de France stage wins of all time. I listened to you talk about him and his struggles with both mental health and with being at the top of his game, at the bottom of his game, and how that journey has been for Cav and I’d love to hear your thoughts George, as it relates to how representative is Cav? He's just tied the all-time record as far as Tour de France stage wins so he's at the very, very top of all-time racers in racing history. But his journeys as it relates to the struggles of being a pro athlete, being a pro cyclist, seem emblematic of basically most of the peloton. Is that fair in the sense of just that grueling day to day nature of being in that race, being in that sport, and what it takes to stay at the top of your game?
George Hincapie: Yeah, especially with somebody like Cav who is just so passionate and such a hard worker and put so much pressure on himself. You know, you see a lot of these guys especially like Michael Phelps, Simone Biles, just the pressure that they put on themselves is more than you can imagine any other sorts of pressure coming. I mean, these guys are so hard on themselves that eventually something is going to crack. You know, I was with Cav, not with Cav, I spoke a lot with Cav through his hard period where last year he didn't have a contract and he was finishing the race and just started bawling on TV thinking that he would never race as a professional cyclist again. And then to go from that low to where he was this year in July, was just for me like one of the greatest comebacks ever. In fact, I talked to him before the Tour de France, like 10 days or two weeks before the Tour de France and I’m like is the Tour de France back on the cards? And he was like man, I don't know if I want to do it, I don't know if I’m ready. And I kind of yelled at him, I’m like bro, you're ready, you got this! And so, even at that point he wasn't fully confident in what he can do, but look what he did, he tied the all-time record for stage winning Tour de France, and it was just a great comeback story. I was really personally happy to see him do so well.
Willy Walker: We were all hoping that he would break Eddy Merckx record on the final stage coming into the Champs Elysees. On your final Tour de France, they asked you to go to the front of the peloton as you came on to the Champs Elysees, to lead the peloton into the Champs Elysees. What was that like? It gives me goosebumps thinking about it but there you are, at the front of the peloton heading to the Champs Elysees on the biggest stage in the world, in the biggest race and you're right at the front of it. How much of an honor was that and anything particular that you remember about that day?
George Hincapie: Well, actually I didn’t want to do it. But all the riders, Bradley Wiggins was winning the tour, you know a lot of the lead riders were like you're doing this, we want you to do it. So basically, I had no choice. You know me Willy, I love the attention. But it was a great feeling coming across the line, my whole family was there, my last Tour de France and it was special just being able to know that, that was one of the last times I was ever going across the Champs Elysees and being honored by the peloton. And by the way, the whole peloton knew that this whole story was about the break. They all knew that I was part of that era 10 years before that. But for the 10 years leading up that I was a major part of the change. For me, it was super special and a confirmation of the fact that, like yes, I was still very well respected, and you know the peloton was thankful for my role in the sport of cycling.
Willy Walker: Well, I am super thankful that you took the time to join me today. I got just as many emails before this from friends saying they can't wait to listen to George, got about three or four last night of people just saying my Wednesday is going to be made by listening to your conversation with George. So, I’m deeply appreciative of the time, I’m deeply appreciative of the friendship and many congratulations on all that you did both in cycling and all that you are doing today outside of cycling, but still in the cycling world. And I very much look forward to seeing you soon and just say thanks very much for taking the time.
George Hincapie: Thank you Willy, likewise. It's been a real pleasure for me, and I very much appreciate the friendship.
Willy Walker: Thanks everyone for joining us. We'll be back next week to talk about the book Legacy and how the All Blacks of New Zealand have created a unique culture and character as they have been the most winning rugby team on the face of the planet. And again, George thanks and I hope everyone has a great Wednesday, take care.
George Hincapie: Thank you.
